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The future is fewer people writing code?

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Re: The future is fewer people writing code?

#201

Post by dragonwriter »

ewzimm wrote: post #194
hackguru wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by computers handling ambiguity? At the end of the day for a idea to become cristalized it needs to be free from ambiguity. That is the case even in human interactions. When using ambiguous language, we iterate over ideas together to make sure everybody is on the same page. If by handling ambiguity, you mean that computers can go back and forth with us to help us remove ambiguity from our thoughts th…

Let's teach our kids the higher level stuff that doesn't ever get old, thinking clearly, engaging in creativity, solving problems, whether through code or whatever means appeals to them. Let's give them options and opportunities, not must mandate memorizing specific facts. Let's teach kids computer science instead of just programming, creative writing instead of just grammar, mathematics instead of just algebra, let'…

The best "programming" curricula aimed at general education teach (elements of both) generalized problem solving and computer science with programming in a particular concrete language or set of languages as a central component and vehicle for that (and often incidentally teach elements of a bunch of other domains through the particular exercises.)

This is particularly true, e.g., of How to Design Programs [0].

[0] http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/

Re: The future is fewer people writing code?

#203

Post by winstonewert »

krapht wrote: post #186
pessimizer wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In particular, any series of computations that can be represented as a directed graph, e.g. a streaming data workflow, or state machine, is much more easily understood pictorially than textually. As long as it is very simple. Electronics already have a highly developed visual language for describing their functions - but if what was going on inside every chip was illustrated just as what was going on between chips,…

Yes, and that's how I would use a language that would allow mixed picture and text logic flows. At a certain level of abstraction block diagrams greatly assist understanding program flow, and it is redundant that I have to write the code and then draw the block diagram later for documentation. Going back to electronics, I don't think anyone would argue that schematic block diagrams are inferior to reading the raw net…

"I don't think anyone would argue that schematic block diagrams are inferior to reading the raw netlist."

Well, no, but some may well argue that reading the HDL is better then a diagram. I have experience working with both the HDL and schematic in the FPGA world, and in my estimation text-based HDL is way better than working with a diagram.

Of course, YMMV, my brain may just be more optimized for processing text instead of images.

Re: The future is fewer people writing code?

#204

Post by khedoros »

autokad wrote: post #197
Jtsummers wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree and I disagree at the same time. For professional programmers, many people on this forum, the format that we use (text) is almost certainly the most efficient (yet conceived). It's made better with better tooling, of course, like IDEs that help us refactor, show errors in code as we edit, etc. The author's point is that many more people will be programming in the future (hopefully) than are today. But not as…

its much faster to put together a functioning system than it was 10 years ago. For example in ROR, install devise and you already have a login system. I imagine things will keep getting incrementally easier / faster until one day we wont need a 'programmer' to do what we want. google isn't unaware, I'll try not to put words in his mouth, but a google exec said something along the lines that we aren't very far from ne…

> google isn't unaware, I'll try not to put words in his mouth, but a google exec said something along the lines that we aren't very far from needing half of the programmers/ IT people we have today

In one way, that's a scary idea (a lot of people will end up looking for work elsewhere). On the other, what programmer wants to do the stuff that can be automated away or done by a non-programmer? Or wants to reinvent the wheel because of NIH syndrome?

Re: The future is fewer people writing code?

#205

Post by saluk »

ewzimm wrote: post #165
rayiner wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars are not "basically just giant computers" on the inside. Computers are used to control various engine parameters, and aspects of the transmission and suspension, but all the parts that make the car go are just refined versions of what existed in the 1960s. Okay, so now we use computers to control valve timing instead of mechanical means. But the principles of what valves are and how they make the engine work are…

The concept of what change is more or less significant can be pretty subjective. I'm not talking about things like fuel efficiency, although those are some really interesting facts. Autopilot in 1947! didn't know that one. Yes, cars and jets still use the same basic architecture for what makes them move, but the control mechanisms for that architecture have completely changed. To bring your comparison closer to the s…

"Now you download Unity and almost everything but the art design and game logic is done for you."

Yes, Unity helps to visually organize your game's data, and there are built in and downloadable components (which are all created by coders) that can be used to plug into your game, but it's just another set of abstractions. Most of the time you will be writing your own components in a traditional coding language or delving into other's component code to adapt it to actually make your game function. There ARE game creation systems intended for no coding required, but they come with the expected limitations of visual coding that people are bringing up in this thread. No, Unity doesn't really fall into this category, barring a few limited game domains.

Perhaps in 50 years every domain will be "mapped" in this way, with predefined components that work with each other and can be tweaked as needed, but I don't see how that could eliminate coding, or even displace it that much. Two reasons I think coding is here to stay:

1) Any sufficiently complex system needs it's organization to be managed. At a certain complexity, whatever system is replacing coding will become something that looks a lot like coding. At that level of complexity, text is easier to manage than a visual metaphor. 2) Most pieces of software need custom components, even if only to stand out. Those game creation systems with no coding? No one is impressed by the games that are created in those systems. Not because the system cannot produce something worthwhile - but because with everything looking the same, the value of that output drops substantially.

I think coding will only go away when programming does. When the computer is as intelligent and creative as we are. And that's a point which I do not want think about too much.

Re: The future is fewer people writing code?

#206

Post by AlexCoventry »

pessimizer wrote: post #127
ewzimm wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm talking about human-guided programming without using traditional programming language, creating a design document to lay out what it does and how data flows and allowing the computer to sort out the details based on a stored data set.

Why do you assume that this design document would be simpler to create than the traditional computer program? Because otherwise, this is exactly what happens now.

There are some fairly aspirational claims about how it might be different in this paper, which is a great read:

http://shaffner.us/cs/papers/tarpit.pdf

There has already been some significant progress on this front. E.g., SQL and logic programming let you describe what you want to happen, and let the computer figure out some of the details. Any compiler worth using does this, too. Smarter machines and smarter programs will mean smarter programming languages.

Re: The future is fewer people writing code?

#207

Post by ihaveahadron »

dasil003 wrote: post #91

Non-programmers make this mistake all the time: thinking that the syntax is the hard part of programming. No, the hard part of programming is understanding in very specific and rigid details how to accomplish a task. What the author doesn't realize is the enormous amount of processing power, shared culture and empathy that goes into human interaction. Even mighty Google doesn't have the compute power or the architect…

There has been no evidence suggesting that computer circuitry is anything more than a small, complex, form of metal and stuff; the same as buildings. So it is assumed that biologics circuit is the only circuitry that produces consciousness. Those who think differently have been proven to be mentally incopetent( mentally ill).

Re: The future is fewer people writing code?

#209

Post by ewzimm »

sanderjd wrote: post #200
ewzimm wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's teach our kids the higher level stuff that doesn't ever get old, thinking clearly, engaging in creativity, solving problems, whether through code or whatever means appeals to them. Let's give them options and opportunities, not must mandate memorizing specific facts. Let's teach kids computer science instead of just programming, creative writing instead of just grammar, mathematics instead of just algebra, let'…

Let's teach them computer science with programming as a fantastic way to concretely demonstrate its abstract ideas. (The same goes for math vs. arithmetic!)

Yes, definitely. Too often the application of the idea is taught without understanding the idea itself. Then we get standardized testing and focus not even on the application but in what ways the application of the idea will be stated on a test. We still need the conceptual framework to learn anything lasting!

Re: The future is fewer people writing code?

#210

Post by jwatte »

"Writing code will become less and less necessary, making software development more accessible to everyone."

I heard that same argument 30 years ago. "4G" and "expert systems" and "application generators" and "visual programming" were going to do away with the "engineering" aspect of software engineering.

However, in reality, we write more complex code for a simple business app now than ever before.

Once hard AI can extract requirements and transform them to systems, we can retire from coding, but probably not before then.

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