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As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

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Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#51
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's lamentable is that objectification is seen universally negative, when it isn't always necessarily. Is there real harm in appreciating the beauty of the people around you (if that's indeed all you are doing)? The term has become so loaded that it's hard to discuss without caveats and justifications, because a good many will argue based on the assumption that objectification is bad, rather than any actual harm.

> Is there real harm in appreciating the beauty of the people around you (if that's indeed all you are doing)? This is probably not harmful, but isn't really what people talk about when they say "objectification" (though I suppose you can describe it as "internalized objectification" if it involves your internal perspective of the targets being reduced primarily to what they provide you.) Most of what people talk abo…

> Most of what people talk about is externalized objectification

Except we have here in this thread a case of people calling someone out on internalized objectification.

> You seem to believe that utilitarianism is the correct, objective, and universally accepted basis for moral discussions

Not necessarily. I'm somewhat peeved peeved by people's assumption that if a term is usually applied to negative behavior, that they can assume when they see that term used the behavior is negative without actually looking at the situation. It's lazy thinking, cargo culting of moral behavior based on terms and not thoughts or actions. But even that's understandable, the real problem is the rabid defense of this behavior and thinking when examined. It's rational discourse vs "it's bad because it's obvious it's bad, and you not just accepting that makes your behavior bad as well".

> (And you seem to describe it as harmful a priori, without pointing to a harm to anyone deriving from it, which seems problematic under its own standards.)

I assume you mean I describe the assumption as bad, not the behavior of objectification, since I don't think I did that. As for that, I think I supplied my reasoning above. In short, I think it leads to lazy thinking, and irrational behavior.

This obviously isn't limited to "objectification" and that's not even the most common place I see it used. I just noticed it in this discussion so decided to mention it.

Edit: To be clear, I'm not implying you are doing anything like this. Your comments have been clear on the objectification in this case possibly having no ill effect. Your comment just seemed a logical place to talk about this meta-topic. I'm also happy to discuss the basis for my own assumptions, as you were right to focus on when presented with a comment like mine.

Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#52
post #27
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And ironically the capitalists always get blamed by the left for this unholy union between the state and upper class. There's a reason many pro-market people want smaller gov and it's not just personal selfish gain to save a few dollars in taxes but to prevent the predictable selfish incentives of the power players from exploiting the absolute power of the state for the benefit of a limited few. No wonder there is a…

How does smaller government help with sweatshops or unemployment or income inequality?

Less regulatory capture. When companies reach the scale of increasing inefficiency of communication and regression to the mean, the natural barrier to their growth, they replace innovation and competitiveness with erecting barriers to entry into their markets.

Try staring a business in a market with large established players. You'll find that you cannot do many of the things they themselves did to get started -- they have erected legislative barriers preventing replication.

Easy -- just write "think of the children" legislation demanding egregious safety, accounting and legal overhead, trivial to bear at scale, but lethal to new entrants...

Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#53
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the fact that they're composed of multiple differently shaped pieces and need to be combined carefully. I've tried putting a robot together myself as I find it silly that we haven't already automated it and... yeah, harder than i thought.

I'm curious whether anyone's tried something like heat fusing instead of stitching for synthetic fibers. Or maybe precise gluing for natural fibers. It seems kind of like we're using robots to automate carriage making...

Ultrasonic sewing machines have been around for decades. They are very limited in the fabrics they can work with and are mostly used for industrial textile products, disposable items, and for things that need to be waterproof, like dry bags.

Gluing is used a lot for things like interfacing (stiffening collars) and hemming. You need a fairly large seam area to get good adhesion. Since the glue makes the fabric stiffer this would make the seam uncomfortable.

Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#54
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there real harm in appreciating the beauty of the people around you (if that's indeed all you are doing)? This is probably not harmful, but isn't really what people talk about when they say "objectification" (though I suppose you can describe it as "internalized objectification" if it involves your internal perspective of the targets being reduced primarily to what they provide you.) Most of what people talk abo…

> Most of what people talk about is externalized objectification Except we have here in this thread a case of people calling someone out on internalized objectification. > You seem to believe that utilitarianism is the correct, objective, and universally accepted basis for moral discussions Not necessarily. I'm somewhat peeved peeved by people's assumption that if a term is usually applied to negative behavior, that…

> Except we have here in this thread a case of people calling someone out on internalized objectification.

If it wasn't externalized in this thread, no one would have been able to call anyone out on it. "Published in an open forum" is not "internalized".

Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#55
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes T-shirts and jeans more complex than other shirts and pants?

I think he's actually suggesting that of the range of textiles and fabrics that we wear that along the dimension of complexity tshirts and jeans are the simpler designs and will thus be some of the lower hanging fruit to automate. I remember reading some documentary stuff or something about fashion evolution through the centuries and stuff was a lot more ornate a few centuries back. Then things went comparatively pre…

Jeans and T-shirts are so standardized and are produced in such large volumes that developing special-purpose machines for them is justified. Automatic production of everything in the September edition of Vogue is a long way off.

Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#56
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Factories and jobs in China (and other countries with factories) are good (in general, at least). It doesn't get much simpler than that. The only people that have issues with it are the consumers thousands of miles away who are completely detached from the issue and realities facing those workers, and who at the same time fuel demand by purchasing and funding those workers.

That says that jobs are good. It says nothing about the sweatshops.

Of course if you just make a statement such as the "bad factories" are bad, then yes. The problem is people use the term sweatshop for any factory, because most people using the term are not doing so with much weight.

Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#57
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Factories and jobs in China (and other countries with factories) are good (in general, at least). It doesn't get much simpler than that. The only people that have issues with it are the consumers thousands of miles away who are completely detached from the issue and realities facing those workers, and who at the same time fuel demand by purchasing and funding those workers.

> The only people that have issues with it are the consumers thousands of miles away who are completely detached from the issue and realities facing those workers, and who at the same time fuel demand by purchasing and funding those workers. Ok, that is just not true. Tell that to the garment workers here that were shot last year by government police while protesting low wages and poor working conditions.

I agree with you. That's bad.

Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#58
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most of what people talk about is externalized objectification Except we have here in this thread a case of people calling someone out on internalized objectification. > You seem to believe that utilitarianism is the correct, objective, and universally accepted basis for moral discussions Not necessarily. I'm somewhat peeved peeved by people's assumption that if a term is usually applied to negative behavior, that…

> Except we have here in this thread a case of people calling someone out on internalized objectification. If it wasn't externalized in this thread , no one would have been able to call anyone out on it. "Published in an open forum" is not "internalized".

So I guess the question is what harm did this cause to others?

Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#59
> This isn't an entirely bad news story: the South Asian garment industry is dangerous and underpaid

Yet they are choosing it over the alternatives. unemployment, sex industry....

How about we let them chose their lives rather than somehow twisting that firing them is a good thing.

These robots will kill people, just in boring ways like increasing child hood mortality.

But it's going to happen, lets snap this band-aide off.

Re: As sewbots threaten Asia's sweatshops, we need to decide who will benefit

#60
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or we could keep the factories, accept unemployment as a result of technical progress, realize that the total amount of goods created has not diminished at all and stop tieing the right to consume to participation in the production process. The "human in the production process" paradigm is doomed to fail as technology progresses anyway.

"accept unemployment as a result of technical progress" Ok. Are you going to be the one that has to give up their job forever?

The question is more like: who gets to give up their job without starving? Who has to keep working, and how are they compensated when nobody starves?
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