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Reddit is still in turmoil

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Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#471

Post by ptomato »

steveklabnik wrote: post #431
makomk wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we're talking about applying the violence historically used against literal fascist marches against people online he's declared to be his enemies, because "the only things fascists respond to is violence". We're talking about an online culture where it doesn't matter if the targets are actually neo-Nazis or conservatives or anything else, because disputing any accusation against them no matter how trivially falsi…

I wasn't planning on jumping in on this thread, but I will leave one (and only one) comment here, just to make this crystal clear: I have no advocated that anyone commit violence against "people online [I've] declared to be [my enemies]." In fact, in the thread you're linking to, right above the archived tweet, I say that I don't know what an anti-fascist movement in tech looks like. And today, years later, I still d…

Not advocating violence, but "100% okay with that"? Don't be disingenuous.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#472

Post by godshatter »

gohrt wrote: post #34
Esau wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what happens when we have truly anonymous free speech, on places such as Reddit, Twitter, and 4Chan, shows that we are nowhere as civilized as we like to think we are.

Are we more civilized when there is no anonymous free speech, and people are abusive only in semi-private situations?

I don't think it's necessarily anonymous free speech that is the problem. I hang out occasionally on Freenet, on FMS and Sone specifically. Freenet is very anonymous by design. It turns out it is a mostly pleasant and helpful community. I think one good reason for that is that both FMS (which is a bulletin board system) and Sone (which is more like Facebook posts) use a version of a "web of trust". People you don't want to hear get filtered out, and others can trust your trust list and filter them out as well. Some people only filter out obvious abuse, others filter out more. Frost (another bulletin board system without a web of trust), on the other hand, is a downright awful place to go most of the time.

I wonder how feasible it would be for Reddit to implement subreddit-based web of trusts for users, as opposed to moderation. People could filter others (or not) individually and not have to rely on someone else to try to filter for the whole group.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#473

Post by dang »

dingo_bat wrote: post #231
dang wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The plan from day one was to make a kinder, gentler imageboard [and] get acquired". This superciliously presumes to know what the founders were thinking, makes it sound like they didn't actually care about Reddit since "from day one" they supposedly had something more trivial in mind, and implies that they were merely in it for a quick flip. In reality they were almost certainly more genuine about it than that; they…

>makes it sound like they didn't actually care about Reddit So the inference made by the commenter conflicts with the inference made by you. So what? Maybe they (reddit founders) really didn't care, maybe they did. Cases can be made for both, with varying degrees of conviction. The whole thing is highly subjective. I don't agree with the conclusion either, but it's not a mindless personal attack. To me it's an opinio…

> I am defending the comment because I can see myself making a similar comment in another context

That's legit, but I don't think you're likely to run into a problem. I took a quick look at your comment history and it doesn't seem related to this at all. Perhaps you're just naturally charitable and it's hard for you to see it when someone else isn't.

(Completely offtopically, I noticed an interesting comment of yours from over a week ago and replied here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12146979)

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#474

Post by steveklabnik »

ptomato wrote: post #471
steveklabnik wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't planning on jumping in on this thread, but I will leave one (and only one) comment here, just to make this crystal clear: I have no advocated that anyone commit violence against "people online [I've] declared to be [my enemies]." In fact, in the thread you're linking to, right above the archived tweet, I say that I don't know what an anti-fascist movement in tech looks like. And today, years later, I still d…

Not advocating violence, but "100% okay with that"? Don't be disingenuous.

Okay, fine, one more comment. Last one for real this time, I think this clarifies something I was missing above.

You'll note that the subject at hand changed during this conversation: the parent I replied to suggested that I was suggesting something specific regarding the right wing in technology, but that response is about abstract antifa actions in France. It's also why I responded the way that I did: the equivalence between the two (European antifa and European fascist organizations) is laughable. But it's just Twitter; I'm not going to get into a debate about the details, I'm just going to say "okay" and move on.

But I did not and do not think, as I said above, that someone should go find tech fascists and cause them bodily harm. It's not something I did suggest or would support today.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#475

Post by ptomato »

steveklabnik wrote: post #474
ptomato wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not advocating violence, but "100% okay with that"? Don't be disingenuous.

Okay, fine, one more comment. Last one for real this time, I think this clarifies something I was missing above. You'll note that the subject at hand changed during this conversation: the parent I replied to suggested that I was suggesting something specific regarding the right wing in technology, but that response is about abstract antifa actions in France. It's also why I responded the way that I did: the equivalen…

Y'know what, fair enough, my bad. I read that tweet as applying to a hypothetical tech antifa, not as applying to actual EU antifa, but clearly I should've given a bit more thought to applying the principle of charity, and I'm sorry & apologize for that.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#477

Post by steveklabnik »

ptomato wrote: post #475
steveklabnik wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, fine, one more comment. Last one for real this time, I think this clarifies something I was missing above. You'll note that the subject at hand changed during this conversation: the parent I replied to suggested that I was suggesting something specific regarding the right wing in technology, but that response is about abstract antifa actions in France. It's also why I responded the way that I did: the equivalen…

Y'know what, fair enough, my bad. I read that tweet as applying to a hypothetical tech antifa, not as applying to actual EU antifa, but clearly I should've given a bit more thought to applying the principle of charity, and I'm sorry & apologize for that.

Thank you very much, no worries.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#478

Post by albedoa »

CM30 wrote: post #412
albedoa wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is extremely disingenuous of you to avoid disclosing in your comment that you are heavily involved in "gaming journalism" and its direction, as that is directly related to the points you attempt to raise and would offer readers a clear understanding of which angle you're approaching from. Not to mention the false equivalences that others have already pointed out. Par for the course I suppose. "Ethics!"

Huh? Yes, I'm involved in gaming journalism and have some interest in the drama going on surrounding controversies like GamerGate, Brexit, various political elections, etc. Does this affect anything? Maybe, but I wouldn't say that makes it disingenuous. I've seen people smear others with accusations of crimes to try and get them fired. I've seen people sic their followers on those they don't like. There have been var…

> Huh?

Nothing was more predictable than the feigned incredulousness, as if you haven't been harping on these exact talking points for months on this site while rationalizing GamerGate [1] and trying to convince us we've been deceived and it's not what we think.

Some gems from that query:

> So you believe what the media tells you about GamerGate? Because there's pretty clear evidence that regardless of your side in this debate, there was a decent chance you'd be trolled, bullied or doxed because of it.

> [GamerGate is] basically a revolt against what some see as a broken media, political correctness being forced on a community that didn't want it and favouritism among the gaming press.

There's no changing you, obviously, but for the sake of the "ethics" you're always talking about, your past efforts should certainly be disclosed when you hijack a top-level comment to make the unsupported claims you're making.

1. https://hn.algolia.com/?query=cm30%20gamergate&sort=byDate&p...

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#479

Post by cthalupa »

dudul wrote: post #334
fredfoobar42 wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened with Milo is less about him attacking Leslie Jones, and more about his _followers_ attacking Leslie Jones. Milo knows full well that if he identifies someone for his heckling, he'll have thousands of trolls and their sockpuppets do the heavy lifting for him.

I personally don't think people should be accountable for their followers behavior, but let's suppose it is so. Then, should we ban people such as Shanley, Randi Harper and their likes when they "unleash" their followers on some guy? And this is actually different. While Milo did not explicitly call for the attacks, Shanley and Randi routinely do call for a target to be abused, for their companies to be harassed unti…

>Then, should we ban people such as Shanley, Randi Harper and their likes when they "unleash" their followers on some guy?

Absolutely. If the goal for Twitter is to be a place free from this sort of abuse, then anyone using a position of prominence to call for harassment and abuse should not be allowed to do so.

I don't actually know who these people are/that they've done what you're saying, but if it's true, then I don't think it's a hard question at all.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#480

Post by maratd »

mindslight wrote: post #451
maratd wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Webapps are user-hostile What? What if I wrote it for my own use? What if it's among the thousands of web apps meant to be installed on a server you control? There's nothing inherent about the technology that requires third party control.

"Webapp" generally implies something administered by a third party. The extra overhead of (dedicated server, network setup, redundancy, each user requiring connectivity) only pays off when it's amortized over many users who do not have to set things up. Sure, some of these release their code as "open source" and you can setup your own copy. But I've never heard of one where the majority of users actually do so [0]. T…

> But I've never heard of one where the majority of users actually do so

https://github.com/Kickball/awesome-selfhosted

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