How Toby Spribille Overturned 150 Years of Biology about Lichens • Hacker News Board

Re: How Toby Spribille Overturned 150 Years of Biology about Lichens

#51

Post by l3m0ndr0p » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 5:36 PM UTC

safeignorance wrote: post #14

whack wrote: post #8

The headline makes it seem as though some guy overturned a fundamental precept of modern biology, while living in a Trailer in Montana. None of the above is true. 1) He happened to grow up in a trailer in Montana, but eventually moved on to attend a good German university, and was no longer living in a "Montana trailer park" while making this discovery. 2) The guy corrected a misunderstanding that people had, regardi…

Of course, the guy's life story is still an inspirational tale of creating opportunities for yourself where none seem to exist. And his discovery -- although probably not rocking the foundation of the (sub)field -- is still impressive and pretty interesting. And the article is written well enough. So you should still read the article. Just pretend the link-baity title doesn't exist and don't go in with pre-conception…

What's also impressive and maybe sad too, is that he received a free education outside of the United States. Sad because he couldn't get educated for free in the the USA.

Re: How Toby Spribille Overturned 150 Years of Biology about Lichens

#52

Post by l3m0ndr0p » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 5:40 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #50

smt88 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics is inextricable from human life, news, and technology. Any story here can be political, and that should be fine. Whatever my political leanings, I had an issue with this sentence: > creating opportunities for yourself where none seem to exist The fact is that there were opportunities . In countries where education is free and accessible, there are always opportunities. If the subject is spreading education,…

That argument isn't valid here and does not lead to positive contributions to HN. Why? Because the topic here is/was concrete: a biologist who made a discovery about lichens. To use that as fodder for an ideological argument is to take the discussion in the wrong direction: away from something that gratifies intellectual curiosity into something that does not, however important it may otherwise be. Intellectual curio…

Anything in that article should be open for discussion or debate. If the article didn't mention the education portion, then it would be in appropriate. However, it was mentioned in the article & I think it should be focused on equally for discussion and debate.

The discovery is amazing. What's even more impressive is that he received a free education in another country, with a home-schooled background.

Re: How Toby Spribille Overturned 150 Years of Biology about Lichens

#53

Post by dang » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #4

Could we change the title to something a little less clickbaity/classist? Even though it's the title of the actual article, trailer parks have nothing to do do with the actual content.

I don't personally agree. The title is baity but in a more inspirational than manipulative way, and I don't see any gain in bringing in a word like 'classist'.

However, many here dislike the title and we're happy to oblige. So let's make a deal: we'll change the title to something more temperate, and you guys start talking about something more interesting than how bad the previous title was.

Re: How Toby Spribille Overturned 150 Years of Biology about Lichens

#54

Post by dang » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 5:48 PM UTC

l3m0ndr0p wrote: post #52

dang wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument isn't valid here and does not lead to positive contributions to HN. Why? Because the topic here is/was concrete: a biologist who made a discovery about lichens. To use that as fodder for an ideological argument is to take the discussion in the wrong direction: away from something that gratifies intellectual curiosity into something that does not, however important it may otherwise be. Intellectual curio…

Anything in that article should be open for discussion or debate. If the article didn't mention the education portion, then it would be in appropriate. However, it was mentioned in the article & I think it should be focused on equally for discussion and debate. The discovery is amazing. What's even more impressive is that he received a free education in another country, with a home-schooled background.

For the most part that's no problem, as long as it's done in the spirit of intellectual curiosity and not ideological battle.

Re: How Toby Spribille Overturned 150 Years of Biology about Lichens

#55

Post by ghostly_s » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 5:52 PM UTC

s0rce wrote: post #41

frandroid wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all learn this story in school, and people have been looking at these guys for a long time. What did you want, a human/algae symbiosis to make this an overturn?

I think its very exciting work and he clearly made an important finding in lichen biology. But, overturning would be if he found that it wasn't 2 organisms but just 1. The previous 2 organisms are still there, there just happens to also be another one that people missed. Everyone else wasn't wrong and the previous work hasn't been overturned, simply added to. This is the basis of most modern science. This doesn't tak…

The previous understanding of these organisms was fundamentally wrong (although partially right). I think it's very odd to be sawing on this idea that 'overturning' a scientific theory requires a complete negation of it.

(If your argument is that "overturning" should never be used to describe a scientific breakthrough you may have a point, albeit a rather uninteresting one.)

Re: How Toby Spribille Overturned 150 Years of Biology about Lichens

#56

Post by eridius » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 5:57 PM UTC

s0rce wrote: post #41

frandroid wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all learn this story in school, and people have been looking at these guys for a long time. What did you want, a human/algae symbiosis to make this an overturn?

I think its very exciting work and he clearly made an important finding in lichen biology. But, overturning would be if he found that it wasn't 2 organisms but just 1. The previous 2 organisms are still there, there just happens to also be another one that people missed. Everyone else wasn't wrong and the previous work hasn't been overturned, simply added to. This is the basis of most modern science. This doesn't tak…

Did you read the entire article? The end of it goes into how many things we thought we knew about the previously-known fungus and algae may not be true after all, there's a lot of work that's going to have to be reevaluated.

Re: How Toby Spribille Overturned 150 Years of Biology about Lichens

#57

Post by astrodust » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 6:02 PM UTC

archgoon wrote: post #7

The main revolution 150 years ago was that lichen was not a single organism. I'm not sure if refining that number from 2 to 3 is legitimately "overturning"; I was reading the article expecting them to say that the two organisms were in fact sharing the same DNA and were in fact sexual dimorphs all this time. On the other hand, figuring out why we've been failing to grow lichen by merging the two species manually for…

This is as huge as the discovery of the neutron was for the atomic model. Wasn't that merely redefining the number of elementary particles from two (electron, proton) to three?

If you actually read the article you'll find out that the properties of the lichen could not be explained by the two known elements alone, that there was some other factor that nobody could describe. The careful work done here uncovered a third element that was the important difference, that there's a three way symbiosis. Now they have a complete model of what's going on after an initial hypothesis put forward 150 years ago.

Considering someone's finally explained how these types of organisms work, and it's a large branch of life, this is a pretty major breakthrough.

Re: How Toby Spribille Overturned 150 Years of Biology about Lichens

#58

Post by astrodust » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 6:04 PM UTC

thieving_magpie wrote: post #18

I lived in Montana for years. The only population of folks that speak German that I'm aware of are Hutterites (German variation of the Amish or Mennonites). If he comes from that group, it makes the story all the more amazing.

They don't name it, but they do strongly hint at it. I bet he got some strange looks when using his arcane German in a modern setting.

Re: How Toby Spribille Overturned 150 Years of Biology about Lichens

#59

Post by astrodust » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 6:06 PM UTC

safeignorance wrote: post #15

alistairSH wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounded like he got no support from his family and "ran away" as soon as he was able. But, he probably could have earned a GED. But, that takes time - perhaps it was faster/easier to move to Germany? The home-schooled teens that go on to college may lack formal paperwork form a school, but they generally do have some test results, paperwork filed with the county/state, and other items they can put on a transcript…

Exactly. It's not just that he was home-schooled. It's that he was apparently home-schooled by people who were apparently particularly incompetent at home-schooling.

Yes, the singular goal of all Hutterite parents is to raise their children to be Ph.D scientists. They utterly failed here.

Re: How Toby Spribille Overturned 150 Years of Biology about Lichens

#60

Post by astrodust » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 6:10 PM UTC

smt88 wrote: post #27

Did he create opportunities for himself, or did he live in a country where other taxpayers covered the cost of his college education? He's an impressive person, but "poor guy pulled himself up by the bootstraps using sheer force of will" narratives usually fall apart when you look more closely.

Babies should work to pay for their own food, those useless freeloaders. Children should work to pay rent, otherwise they're ungrateful leeches.

Or maybe education is one of those things important to the survival of our species and the improvement of quality of life for everyone. Nobody benefits when someone who wanted to be a doctor or a scientist and was capable of becoming one is denied an education and instead can't get a job for lack of qualifications.

The number of people who've pulled themselves up from their own bootstraps are zero. You're always dependent on others or benefit from their knowledge in some capacity. The degree to which this happens is variable, but it can never be eliminated.

A "self-made man" is a myth. Give it up.