Reddit is still in turmoil • Hacker News Board

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#411

Post by cookiecaper » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 4:43 PM UTC

xemdetia wrote: post #373

bloaf wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a somewhat more recent (i.e. within the past 4 years) development on reddit. For a long time it seemed to me that the various sub-communities grew out of some shared sense of what it was to be a redditor (memes like the dumb "narwhal bacon" thing were expressions of that.) People were redditors first, and members of the various sub-communities second. But recently this has not been the case. People se…

I find myself blaming the some of the default sub choices from within the past 4 years. The choices made there created a really frustrating global reddit user experience- it used to be that when you first logged in there was only a dozen subreddits people were looking at. In the last four years the default experience is now up to like 50 subreddits which in my opinion take a very curated and particular view of all th…

reddit's failure to attract different types of people is largely because of the way they use default subreddits. Facebook and Twitter start users off with a blank page and ask about their interests first, and thus, both platforms attract all types of people. When your average person goes to reddit.com and see anti-religious stuff or pro-some-political-candidate first thing, they assume that it's not the place for them and move on without understanding that the experience can be customized by subscribing to specific subreddits, etc.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#412

Post by CM30 » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 4:45 PM UTC

albedoa wrote: post #407

CM30 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twitter's problem isn't quite the same as Reddit's. It's because the site is incredibly inconsistent with its moderation. If you run a community, you need consistency. Members need to know where the boundaries are in regards to how you can act and what is/isn't acceptable. Twitter doesn't really do this well. If you agree with the staff political stances, you can basically get away with anything. If you're popular en…

It is extremely disingenuous of you to avoid disclosing in your comment that you are heavily involved in "gaming journalism" and its direction, as that is directly related to the points you attempt to raise and would offer readers a clear understanding of which angle you're approaching from. Not to mention the false equivalences that others have already pointed out. Par for the course I suppose. "Ethics!"

Huh?

Yes, I'm involved in gaming journalism and have some interest in the drama going on surrounding controversies like GamerGate, Brexit, various political elections, etc. Does this affect anything? Maybe, but I wouldn't say that makes it disingenuous.

I've seen people smear others with accusations of crimes to try and get them fired. I've seen people sic their followers on those they don't like. There have been various obvious threats left up that should have been removed in a decently moderated community.

And these issues come from all sides. They're not acceptable on either side, but from my experience, a conservative will seemingly get the rules enforced on them more harshly.

I wouldn't say those comparisons are false equivalences. I'm not comparing someone calling someone else a scumbag with a terrorist threat. Someone who claims they want to physically attack people should be banned much more quickly than someone who merely calls a few names.

But that's not happening at Twitter.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#413

Post by fernandotakai » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 4:45 PM UTC

ivank wrote: post #90

thekevan wrote: post #53

My use of reddit is way own. I'm tired of going to the front page and seeing so many submissions about things I don't care about like multiple video games, dumb inside jokes like r/circlejerk or all those repetitive links about Trump or Sanders. I know I can buy gold and customize the front page, but I am a little hesitant to pay money to make the front page not suck. I have ads turned on in my adblocker so they do g…

You don't have to buy gold to customize the front page. Any account can customize subscriptions.

yeah. makes no sense to use reddit and not customize which subreddits you want to see. i mean, the major point of reddit is being able to curate what content you want to consume.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#414

Post by cookiecaper » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 4:51 PM UTC

qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #337

Reddit is a crossroads: It's an intersection between the cultures of 4chan (which is in itself an intersection of japanese and american sensibilities), and the culture of usenet, and internet forums, and a dozen other cultures besides. None of these cultures handle censorship well. They all originated in an environment where, to some extent, you could say whatever the hell you like. Many of Reddit's early users came…

The problem is that reddit is trying to be both a neutral platform and a cohesive community at the same time. No one gets mad at phpBB when someone deploys a forum with an objectionable theme because it's understood that they had no involvement, they just provided the code for anyone and everyone to use in accordance with a FOSS license. reddit tried to do that with hosted subreddits, but it also tried to cross-pollinate and make one big reddit family and see everyone on reddit.com as "redditors". That results in a lot of infighting and resentment (/r/the_donald v. /r/enoughtrumpspam, /r/atheism v. /r/christianity, etc.), not to mention some doxxing, harassment, brigading, and invasions.

It's tense in the real world when people with diametrically opposed worldviews are forced to mingle, but it can sometimes go OK because the human aspect tempers it. Occasionally, with especially open-minded participants, a friendship can be kindled. That doesn't seem to happen at all when these people are not put in a room together, but on a message board, especially an anonymous message board.

reddit didn't know whether it wanted to be a warm fuzzy community, for which common ideals and values are foundational, or whether it wanted to be an agnostic, neutral, unfeeling platform provider. IMO that's responsible for a big part of the culture clash that we see on reddit, and it's left them in the awkward position discussed here.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#415

Post by retox » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 4:56 PM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #383

toss1941 wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only game makers would build this kind of system into their Anti-cheats, make the cheater think for as long as possible they are ruining other people's day only to find out that the last hour has been against AI with canned outrage responses from the AI.

I think most game makers just put cheaters into a cheater-only pool of players.

I like this idea; let's see who has the best and biggest cheats. A comedian once suggested we have the Olympics and we do today, and a no-holds-barred Cheaters Olympics where those competing can take any substance they like, to really see how far the human body can be pushed.

I wonder how long until we have to have a regular and an augmented Olympics.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#416

Post by vec » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 5:03 PM UTC

ythl wrote: post #349

jules wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with reddit isn't the admins, but that people who have managed to become moderators of prominent subreddits censor posts and thousands of rather innocent comments. For example the Orlando terrorist attack was censored from /r/news, and when they later allowed the posts to go through they deleted most of the comments, including all comments talking about the censorship of the previous posts. They even dele…

> This strategy backfired immensely when the Donald Trump subreddit ended up being the only one reporting on the news. Say what you will about republicans, but they often end up being the biggest defenders of constitutional rights. Democrats on the other hand (aka "progressives") are always looking for ways to limit constitutional rights in order to create a "safer society" and stable "social climate". Just look at E…

Speaking as a progressive, that's because most of us consider the US Constitution to be a means, rather than an end unto itself. We tend to make a strong distinction between Natural and Legal Rights[1] and to group the Constitution into the latter category. And Legal Rights are useful only insofar as they align with the underlying Natural Rights they support (i.e. life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness).

Our constitution is extremely useful. It's among the best systems for protecting our rights that we as humans seem to have devised, and we disregard the wisdom it encodes at our own peril. But that doesn't mean it's either perfect or sacred. If a law is actively harming (or negligently failing to protect) the inherent worth and dignity of every human being, then that law is wrong by definition, and I've yet to hear an argument that the Bill of Rights is exempt from that analysis.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#417

Post by vkou » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 5:14 PM UTC

CM30 wrote: post #377

soundwave106 wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One rule of thumb would to be to recognize that, within all groups, there are extremists (and they often have the loudest voices). It is wise not to denounce an entire group based on the extremists. It is wise not to flippantly dismiss concerns raised based on the behavior of the extremists. The problem I see with a heck of a lot of online conversations is that it ridiculously fails this rule. Often times there are s…

Of course it's possible to be anti facist without being violent. It's possible to non violently get changes in the world, at least if you're in a remotely democratic society like the one you're in at the moment. People like Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi proved it. Responding to political concerns with violence just begets more violence. It just entrenches people's beliefs even further, inspires revenge from t…

Martin Luther King changed the world because America decided that it would rather deal with him, then the far more violent parts of the black liberation movement.

If those more violent parts didn't put the fear of God into the government, he could have been safely ignored.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#418

Post by Chathamization » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 5:17 PM UTC

didgeoridoo wrote: post #308

skj wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ask us to compare between two examples, you are required to provide two actual examples instead of having us just imagine a scenario that fits your claim.

Perhaps I can assist: Shaun King calls Jason Whitlock a "coon". He keeps his verified check and account. If that isn't personal, racial abuse and harassment, I'm not sure what is. EDIT: Not being tremendously familiar with this spat, it took me a while to figure out what Milo got banned for. Best I can figure out, it was for calling a Ghostbusters actress "barely literate". Since that's a bit of a weak-tea insult, I…

I think Milo was banned because he was retweeting fake epithet laced hate speech tweets that were made to look like they came from Leslie Jones:

http://fusion.net/story/327103/leslie-jones-twitter-racism/

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#419

Post by vkou » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 5:17 PM UTC

toss1941 wrote: post #398

legodt wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High incidents of hate speech, abusive behavior online, high overlap with swatting, death threats, and chasing women off the internet. The movement acts as a hate group and is made up of typical "red pilled" men's rights type people. And, much like most extreme right groups, all of these ills are dismissed as illusions by a nebulous liberal media that is against their hateful cause.

GamerGate exposed clear ethical violations in the gaming media. Do you dispute that too? That same media has yet to clean up it's mess and famously doubled down by ignoring the legitimate claims or blowing them off while conveniently pretending that every troll/kid with a keyboard are really the spokespeople of the movement.

GG spent the vast majority of its energy harassing and personally attacking two women, one of whom wasn't even involved in gaming journalism.

GG also completely ignored the fundamental ethical violation in traditional game journalism - that review sites make all their money by advertising the products they review. Instead, it spent all of its time complaining about how some idie game developer is friends with an indie game reviewer, and sending death threats to Anita and Zoe.

If it looks like a thug, walks like a thug, and quacks like a thug... You can't expect anyone to take its valid points particularly seriously.

In a stunning lack of self-awareness, GG has never considered that perhaps it should apply its expectations for ethical behaviour to itself.

Re: Reddit is still in turmoil

#420

Post by patmcguire » Fri, Jul 22, 2016, 5:18 PM UTC

skj wrote: post #292

CM30 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twitter's problem isn't quite the same as Reddit's. It's because the site is incredibly inconsistent with its moderation. If you run a community, you need consistency. Members need to know where the boundaries are in regards to how you can act and what is/isn't acceptable. Twitter doesn't really do this well. If you agree with the staff political stances, you can basically get away with anything. If you're popular en…

If you ask us to compare between two examples, you are required to provide two actual examples instead of having us just imagine a scenario that fits your claim.

Milo Yiannopoulos vs Ben Dreyfuss.

http://fredrikdeboer.com/2016/07/20/whos-in-and-whos-out-tha...

(And this is from a socialist)