The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt • Hacker News Board

Re: The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

#51

Post by Amygaz » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 2:55 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #24

drabiega wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if it's what he was referring to, but when I was able to commute on public transit my commute was longer but I was free to do other things during that time, primarily reading. Now that I live somewhere without public transit my commute is just dead time.

I listen to podcasts and don't actually commute in that often anyway. To the degree that public transportation = subways/busses, I don't find it all that different as it's not that conducive to reading anyway in my experience.

I concur. My daily trip starts with the not so reliable and overcrowded commuter rail, with its spotty connection, so reading it is, (with my earbuds on, no music, because this thing is so noisy). I don't deal with the subway/bus frequently but it is only good for podcast time, and often I prefer walking, because it takes about the same time as the bus, and has more benefits.

Re: The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

#52

Post by mhotchen » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 2:56 PM UTC

jeffbush wrote: post #46

ryandrake wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words, if your job can be done from home or from Arkansas, it can be done from India.

I'd note that tech pundits and journalists have been saying for 20 years that many US jobs would move to India and other countries, but offshoring, while common, hasn't really made a dent in the US tech sector. It's interesting to think about why.

I set up an offshore team of four in India some years back. Two of the developers ended up being lackluster and let go, but two of them continued on as they were fairly decent. Even so the cultural difference was significant and it was difficult to manage them. I don't think it was their fault, they just had a very different views on what they considered was a completed task, how they went about asking for further requirements, etc. Whilst it was worth having them, there was a surprising and hidden overhead in cost for the cultural impact, as well as timezone issues.

Later in my career I worked with a team from Hong Kong as well, the cultural gap was less significant and they were able to work well with the management style given. We still had timezone issues (moreso since I'm from the UK which is further from HK than from India), but because they interpreted tickets in the same way and had similar views on what the definition of done was things were far more harmonious.

Communication is a huge factor in remote teams, and whilst there are lots of tools to aid it, communication styles across cultures can be very different which can cause a lot of friction.

Re: The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

#53

Post by goda90 » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 3:07 PM UTC

jeffbush wrote: post #43

I had to chuckle a little that this mentions Grand Rapids. I grew up there and moved to Silicon Valley 18 years ago. I hated it there: brutal long winters (Google "lake effect"), hot humid summers, mosquitos, and a socially conservative monoculture. I definitely understand people's frustration with the real estate situation around here, but there's more to an area than just jobs and houses.

Some people enjoy the snow, green everywhere, no water restrictions, and less traffic. Sure mosquitos suck, but so does having everything be more expensive. There definitely is more to it than jobs and houses, so I chose to return home to the Midwest to get paid a little less(though not much in terms of cost of living) than I would at a Silicon Valley firm.

Re: The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

#54

Post by raverbashing » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 3:10 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #33

whack wrote: post #26

Be careful what you wish for. In a world where physical proximity no longer matters, American programmers earning 6 figures, will have to compete against programmers from South America/Europe/Asia, all of whom earn significantly less than 6 figures. There currently exists a massive salary gap between equally qualified programmers, living in different regions of the world. Eliminating the physical-proximity perks, wil…

In other words, if your job can be done from home or from Arkansas, it can be done from India.

Going for the extreme cheap will also have some problems

South Americans (or even Mexico) will have a smaller time zone difference, less cultural differences.

Southern western Europe might be a good source of developers as well

Re: The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

#55

Post by wmeredith » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 3:12 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #33

whack wrote: post #26

Be careful what you wish for. In a world where physical proximity no longer matters, American programmers earning 6 figures, will have to compete against programmers from South America/Europe/Asia, all of whom earn significantly less than 6 figures. There currently exists a massive salary gap between equally qualified programmers, living in different regions of the world. Eliminating the physical-proximity perks, wil…

In other words, if your job can be done from home or from Arkansas, it can be done from India.

Eh, I've worked with teams in Arkansas and India and I'm not overly concerned. There are more barriers to collaboration than physical location. Culture and language are huge friction points when they don't align, not to mention responsiveness issues due to temporal displacement.

You can just "deal with it" and your budget, codebase, and timeline will suffer. It adds a lot of overhead. Hiring a worker a timezone or two away that speaks the same language and shares a national, if not regional, culture with the rest of your team is an entirely different proposition than hiring one on the other side of the planet that speaks a different language. It CAN work, I've seen it. But I've seen it be a deal breaker much more often.

Re: The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

#56

Post by zeveb » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 3:15 PM UTC

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #15

toomanythings4 wrote: post #10

In 1992, a friend got a job in the valley and I visited him when I was out there visiting the HQ for my company. He asked me to go with him to check out a condo he was thinking of buying. Remember that these are 1992 prices. The two-bedroom place we looked at was just like one of my first apartments. When the agent said it was $250K, I almost fell on the floor. My wife and I had just bought our first house, which was…

And the difference is you're stuck living in a "nice middle class neighborhood" with a ton of space you probably don't need. For many people moving to cities the value of the area is worth many times the value of the space. I wouldn't trade my nyc studio for a McMansion back in bumfuck SC no matter how much you offered me; and I think there must be a large population that shares that sentiment.

> I wouldn't trade my nyc studio for a McMansion back in bumfuck SC no matter how much you offered me

With an attitude like that, I certainly hope you never do: neither you nor your new South Carolinian neighbours would enjoy it.

I live in a condo now, but I miss living in a house and not being able to hear anyone but my family. I miss playing in the back yard as a kid, and roaming around the neighbourhood on long summer evenings. There are many nice things about cities, and there are many nice things about suburbs, and there are many nice things about rural areas too.

Re: The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

#57

Post by eitally » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 3:20 PM UTC

Amygaz wrote: post #49

hyperpape wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to go far from some of the mid-sized cities to get a relatively rural experience. I'm 7 miles (15 minutes) from Red Hat's building in Raleigh, and 1 mile from a corn field. My house is definitely suburban, not rural, and with the way growth in my town is going, that corn field will be gone in a few years, but there's plenty of rural land just a little further out.

I wouldn't place Raleigh in the same league as NY, LA, SF, WDC, Chicago and Boston. These have 5-fold or more the population density than Raleigh. But the distance metric would stick: if you can leave ~7 miles (15 min) outside Raleigh and afford a good land, it compares with Boston area (5-fold pop. density), with 35 miles outside for a house on 1 acre land, and about 75 minutes commute during rush hour (would drop t…

But I don't think most people get 5x the benefit from living in Boston vs Raleigh. That said, I strongly suspect the greater Raleigh-Durham area is going to dwarf Boston in population in another 15-20 years. It's been growing like gangbusters, honestly since about 1980, and although property has become quite a bit more expensive, it's still nothing like the historically dense urban centers. For example, I'm in the process of selling my 4300sqft house in a beautiful neighborhood in Cary for $525k so I can move to San Jose (into a 1700sqft hovel I paid $1.35m for). If an expected salary for an experienced tech worker in the RDU area is in the $125-150k range (say, 10+ years exp), and is in the $175-220k range in the SFBA, that money goes MUCH further in a second tier metro like Raleigh-Durham.

Re: The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

#58

Post by vmarsy » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 3:21 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #33

whack wrote: post #26

Be careful what you wish for. In a world where physical proximity no longer matters, American programmers earning 6 figures, will have to compete against programmers from South America/Europe/Asia, all of whom earn significantly less than 6 figures. There currently exists a massive salary gap between equally qualified programmers, living in different regions of the world. Eliminating the physical-proximity perks, wil…

In other words, if your job can be done from home or from Arkansas, it can be done from India.

Working from the West coast regularly with people in India, Europe,and US east coast, I disagree.

You certainly have some benefits of having teams spread out around the world, as you could virtually have someone working at any hour of the day.

But communication is very hard with the foreign countries, because of 2 things: time difference, and some language barriers. Even with only the 3h time difference, communication with the east coast is sometimes problematic.

It really depends on how your team works, but let's say you insist on code reviews before submitting code, then you can easily loose days between a dev in India and a dev in the US.

Re: The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

#59

Post by theunixbeard » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 3:22 PM UTC

jeffbush wrote: post #46

ryandrake wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words, if your job can be done from home or from Arkansas, it can be done from India.

I'd note that tech pundits and journalists have been saying for 20 years that many US jobs would move to India and other countries, but offshoring, while common, hasn't really made a dent in the US tech sector. It's interesting to think about why.

I've always wondered why tech salaries in Western Europe were so much lower than the US (exc. Silicon Valley effect).

Could it be the proximity to similiar-culture Eastern Europe where inexpensive developers are easily available?

Re: The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

#60

Post by theunixbeard » Thu, Jul 21, 2016, 3:22 PM UTC

jeffbush wrote: post #46

ryandrake wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words, if your job can be done from home or from Arkansas, it can be done from India.

I'd note that tech pundits and journalists have been saying for 20 years that many US jobs would move to India and other countries, but offshoring, while common, hasn't really made a dent in the US tech sector. It's interesting to think about why.

I've always wondered why tech salaries in Western Europe were so much lower than the US (exc. Silicon Valley effect).

Could it be the proximity to similiar-culture Eastern Europe where inexpensive developers are easily available?