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The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

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Re: The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

#41

Post by vonmoltke »

zappo2938 wrote: post #31
ghaff wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose it partly depends on how broadly you define "tech hub." If that includes 20-30 places worldwide, I'm not going to violently disagree. If it means Bay Area + Portland + Seattle + ...? Then I will. Especially because "tech" isn't limited to web/social/mobile.

If you want to work on a yacht, you have to move to Fort Lauderdale until you are established. There is no way around it. You can be a doctor anywhere, but if you are going to do medical research you have to be in New Orleans, New York Boston, DC / Maryland, or Chicago, maybe the Cleveland Clinic. If you are Marine Biologist you are living in Woods Hole, Monterey, or La Jolla. If you are doing aerospace engineering y…

> If you want to work on a yacht, you have to move to Fort Lauderdale until you are established.

No you don't. Marina Mile may have the highest density of yacht builders and dealers in the country, but it is far from the only place. Plus, yachts are a pretty small subset of boatbuilding, which goes on in all coastal areas.

> You can be a doctor anywhere, but if you are going to do medical research you have to be in New Orleans, New York Boston, DC / Maryland, or Chicago, maybe the Cleveland Clinic.

Dallas, Houston, Miami, and Memphis would like a word with you.

> If you are doing aerospace engineering you are going to be living in Virginia, Southern California, or Washington.

Dallas, Boston, St. Louis, Tuscon, Atlanta, Denver, and Melbourne would like a word with you.

> It is stupid to think that someone who wants to do 'web/social/mobile' can get a decent start outside of a place without lots of other people doing it.

First, it is stupid to think there do not exist a whole lot places with "lots" of people doing web/social/mobile.

Second, it is stupid to think web/social/mobile defines the tech industry. I have spent 14 years as an electrical, systems, and software engineer. I have never worked in that segment, and don't plan on it.

> I don't think that there is anyone on Hacker News who can say they succeeded getting their start in the industry outside of a 'software' tech hub.

"software" != "web/social/mobile"

Plus, despite the slightly hyperbolic way I sometimes bitch about my career path, I have spent my entire career in Dallas, and if I could learn to stomach either going back to the defense industry or jumping to enterprise development I could spend my entire career here.

> If someone wants to be a serious software engineer they are going to have to commit to living in SF, DC, Boston, Austin, or Portland at some point in the beginning. It is disingenuous to tell people who are starting it is otherwise. Part of the commitment of being a software engineer is living in a place with lots of other software engineers for a little while.

That is ridiculous, unless you define "serious software engineer" in a circular fashion such that one, by definition, needs to. Then your definition would be ridiculous.

> It is not fair to anyone starting out to say they don't have to move to where there is a lot of activity. It is so unfair.

No, it is not fair to anyone starting out to tell them that they must get their first job in one of the self-described software meccas and that they are a failure if they don't.

Re: The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

#42

Post by sethammons »

zappo2938 wrote: post #31
ghaff wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose it partly depends on how broadly you define "tech hub." If that includes 20-30 places worldwide, I'm not going to violently disagree. If it means Bay Area + Portland + Seattle + ...? Then I will. Especially because "tech" isn't limited to web/social/mobile.

If you want to work on a yacht, you have to move to Fort Lauderdale until you are established. There is no way around it. You can be a doctor anywhere, but if you are going to do medical research you have to be in New Orleans, New York Boston, DC / Maryland, or Chicago, maybe the Cleveland Clinic. If you are Marine Biologist you are living in Woods Hole, Monterey, or La Jolla. If you are doing aerospace engineering y…

I think I may be a single person to provide counter-data. I live in a small mountain community. The closest thing resembling a tech hub near me is Irvine followed by Los Angeles. Easily 2+ hours away. I commuted out to near Irvine to start my career (about 1.5 hour commute, and still do the commute half the week). I know I am in the minority, and I would recommend that others increase their odds of getting a start by living near a tech hub for a couple of years, but it is not impossible.

Re: The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

#43

Post by jeffbush »

I had to chuckle a little that this mentions Grand Rapids. I grew up there and moved to Silicon Valley 18 years ago. I hated it there: brutal long winters (Google "lake effect"), hot humid summers, mosquitos, and a socially conservative monoculture. I definitely understand people's frustration with the real estate situation around here, but there's more to an area than just jobs and houses.

Re: The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

#45

Post by hx87 »

douche wrote: post #18
lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the difference is you're stuck living in a "nice middle class neighborhood" with a ton of space you probably don't need. For many people moving to cities the value of the area is worth many times the value of the space. I wouldn't trade my nyc studio for a McMansion back in bumfuck SC no matter how much you offered me; and I think there must be a large population that shares that sentiment.

That's really the tradeoff. Some people like trees and grass and a modicum of peace and quiet and privacy. Other people like to live in the caves of steel, with a seething mass of humanity flowing all around. I think you can guess where I stand on the matter. You couldn't pay me enough money to relocate to Manhattan or San Francisco.

> Other people like to live in the caves of steel, with a seething mass of humanity flowing all around.

Funnily enough, that's what every suburban Walmart feels like.

Re: The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

#46

Post by jeffbush »

ryandrake wrote: post #33
whack wrote: post #26

Be careful what you wish for. In a world where physical proximity no longer matters, American programmers earning 6 figures, will have to compete against programmers from South America/Europe/Asia, all of whom earn significantly less than 6 figures. There currently exists a massive salary gap between equally qualified programmers, living in different regions of the world. Eliminating the physical-proximity perks, wil…

In other words, if your job can be done from home or from Arkansas, it can be done from India.

I'd note that tech pundits and journalists have been saying for 20 years that many US jobs would move to India and other countries, but offshoring, while common, hasn't really made a dent in the US tech sector. It's interesting to think about why.

Re: The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

#47

Post by dionidium »

zappo2938 wrote: post #13
ghaff wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you seriously believe that glib statement? That if you don't move to the Bay area or a reasonable image of it you might as well become a fast food worker or whatever? Yes, there are certain advantages to industry job density but I actually find it rather bad advice to frame a career in tech as inherently depending upon living in a half-dozen or so cities--that can't begin to accommodate everyone.

Yes, I strongly believe that if a person is starting in tech and not established with a reputation, they should move to a tech hub. It seems like a lot of people are going to downvote my opinion, however, I am sure that each and every person who does downvote this opinion lived in or near a tech hub when they started.

I can give my personal take on working as a software developer in St. Louis. Ten years ago, it was pretty hard to find cutting-edge work. Developers here usually went to work writing code for Boeing or AT&T or Edward Jones, etc. (I worked for AT&T.)

But that's an outdated view of the world.

I now work for a medium-sized software company. I have multiple friends here who work at little web/mobile consultancies. There is even a smallish startup scene and an incubator [0].

Obviously, it's not on the scale of New York or Boston or SF, but it's large enough to render your comment absurd.

[0] http://www.downtowntrex.org/

Re: The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

#49

Post by Amygaz »

hyperpape wrote: post #25
ghaff wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes you like cities. I don't dislike cities in general but I also like my rural property. I honestly don't see a particular advantage to small towns. What I like about cities is things like theater, good restaurants, and related culture which typically take significant scale. Not sure what extra hours you're talking about. I have a modest (25 min or so) commute when I go into the (suburban/exurban) office an…

You don't have to go far from some of the mid-sized cities to get a relatively rural experience. I'm 7 miles (15 minutes) from Red Hat's building in Raleigh, and 1 mile from a corn field. My house is definitely suburban, not rural, and with the way growth in my town is going, that corn field will be gone in a few years, but there's plenty of rural land just a little further out.

I wouldn't place Raleigh in the same league as NY, LA, SF, WDC, Chicago and Boston. These have 5-fold or more the population density than Raleigh.

But the distance metric would stick: if you can leave ~7 miles (15 min) outside Raleigh and afford a good land, it compares with Boston area (5-fold pop. density), with 35 miles outside for a house on 1 acre land, and about 75 minutes commute during rush hour (would drop to 35 minutes outside rush hour).

Re: The Case for Working in Silicon Valley and Living in the Rust Belt

#50

Post by TarpitCarnivore »

sotojuan wrote: post #9
raverbashing wrote: post #3

So, people who build services for the internet finally found out it exists? And that if you work with github/slack/jira/several other services you already can work remotely? Really?!

It's ironic that so many people build services to "connect" people over long distances and find it amazing to find out you can work over long distances.

Ironic is applying for a job at a company building one of those services and being told they don't offer remote positions.
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