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When a crow dies, the other crows investigate the cause of death (2015)

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Re: When a crow dies, the other crows investigate the cause of death (2015)

#231
post #164
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>They went so berserk that I thought for sure they would swoop down and peck at me like Alfred Hitchcock's "The Birds", but they didn't. You got lucky. Here in India, crows get electrified all the time and if you try to clean up a good set of crows will peck on you. And trust me I've been pecked once and it hurts real bad, some times it rough enough to make a person bleed.

Would it be unreasonable to go at them with a cricket bat if they dive bomb you? Not out of aggression, but self defense.

[deleted]

Re: When a crow dies, the other crows investigate the cause of death (2015)

#233
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Losing an eye.... How. Birds weight so little compared to a human that our eyelids mass is significant on that scale. The reason birds don't attack people is because a human randomly flailing can outright kill crows by the dozen and evolution selects against suicide.

I'm not arguing crows will attack people, but 'evolution selects against suicide' does not guarantee they don't. Bees attack people, and they are quite a bit smaller. Humans in wartime volunteer for suicide missions, too, if they deem the payout for their comrades high enough.

> Humans in wartime volunteer for suicide missions, too, if they deem the payout for their comrades high enough.

Really. Got any reliable sources on that, using a reasonable definition of "voluntary", based on sources other than veteran war stories[0] and film plots? :-)

(a reasonable interpretation of "not voluntary" includes all people who were forced to join the army because it was the only viable career-option for their socio-economic class)

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it seems highly likely that the perceived frequency of these occurrences must be extremely inflated because it's been in the interest of war propaganda anywhere since forever, to pretend that knowingly volunteering for a suicide mission is not only perfectly sensible, not only extremely noble, but that this is in fact what you already signed up for, so why are you still standing here?

Then there's the question whether this is even relevant in the context of evolution. Soldiers have to be trained and drilled intensively for the explicit purpose of artificially altering their learned instincts which seems to me quite solid evidence of the contrary; that this behaviour is exactly not part of human nature, and that humans by default will not act like this unless you train them to.

You can probably train crows to suicide-attack humans as well.

[0] I realise leaving out this group leaves the data a bit thin on the ground, but given the extreme biases involved, it's useless data. So many stories people would rather not talk about, to name just one bias. Or stories altered after the fact (like they actually drew lots but tell it as voluntary because they are thankful and know it could've been them just as easily).

Re: When a crow dies, the other crows investigate the cause of death (2015)

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a different perspective, which I will admit in advance is kind of ridiculous, but it makes me think... Why are humans not considered to be a part of nature? I think it’s because we consider ourselves to be more intelligent than other animals/organisms and therefore assume it to be our responsibility to actively protect nature. However, this is based on our own moral standards, which were created by us, likely…

Unregulated humans have lead to the extinction of hundreds (thousands?) of species. Largely by hunting, but also unintentionally by destroying habitats. It's also a safety hazard: when you feed wild animals, they learn to associate humans with food and are more willing to approach humans, which places humans in danger. Aside from animal welfare, garbage is just disgusting. If one person sees an apple core, perhaps th…

> If one person sees an apple core, perhaps they'll assume it's OK to leave their Doritos bag

Let me nuance that a little bit: They don't actually believe it's OK, they're really just lazy and inconsiderate. If they were actually unaware of the difference between food and plastic packaging, the problem would be solving itself.

Re: When a crow dies, the other crows investigate the cause of death (2015)

#235
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

National parks want to maintain nature in a certain pre-tech-influence state. Don't over-philosophize it.

People were philosophizing long before tech-influence. Technology was absent from the thought train too.

Are you saying they had thought trains before there were trains?

Re: When a crow dies, the other crows investigate the cause of death (2015)

#236
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What most people don't realize is that most live forms lower on the chain can read our minds. So if the crow's reaction was different based on what you wanted to throw, it's because it knew what you wanted to do before you did it. It was reading your thoughts. Dogs and cats do it too. A few years ago I went to a farm to buy a goat. The younger goats did not know why I was there, but when an older goat saw me and our…

Okay, so these are the kinds of things that definitely need a citation ;) In what sense do you mean reading minds? Genuine mind reading, or basically a kind of intuiting about human intention based on say, body language?

> In what sense do you mean reading minds? Genuine mind reading, or basically a kind of intuiting about human intention based on say, body language?

And by "genuine", he means "magical" ... :-)

Re: When a crow dies, the other crows investigate the cause of death (2015)

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't downvote, it's true. Animals can read your thoughts. The mechanism seems to be that they can see your visualizations: I can call my sister's cat in from outside "telepathically" by clearly "seeing" in my mind's eye the cat walking in the back door and "sending" the imagery to him. Sometimes the if the back door is closed and I'm not distracted by computer or something he "calls" me to open the door. Subjectivel…

No, I'm sorry, you got this wrong. When you do that, you are not "calling" the cat, you are effectively controlling it with your mind eye. You need to be very careful with that, doing it long term can result in damage to the cat.

Okay let's get one part straight here. I don't believe any of this bullshit but I'm pretty sure I know a lot more about it than whatever you're making up right now.

The "mind's eye" is strictly input-only. Associated image of a silver mirror (or the Moon or my favourite, the pineal gland), which carries a reflection of the realm(s) of the Gods (or Godlike), which are beyond comprehension of mortal Man yadda-yadda etc, you can only witness the reflected image, which can be a divine/true vision or a false vision/hallucination (or a meaningless vision, or any combination thereof). Hence why the moon is associated with insanity.

I like reading about these kinds of things for fun, and because it has some weird and twisted yet surprisingly consistent logic to it (by which I mean, not very consistent but still surprisingly so). I've never read anything (outside the explicitly fictional) about it being hurtful to cats, though. And somehow I doubt you'd be able to provide me with a source either :)

Re: When a crow dies, the other crows investigate the cause of death (2015)

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm sorry, you got this wrong. When you do that, you are not "calling" the cat, you are effectively controlling it with your mind eye. You need to be very careful with that, doing it long term can result in damage to the cat.

I am picturing in my mind's eye someone beating you on the dome of your skull with an oversized elementary science textbook. It is not generally useful to say someone else is "wrong" about their religion or superstitions, unless you have statistically significant data from a controlled, reproducible experiment that contradicts their implied hypothesis. Without the support of facts, you're just in a pissing contest ov…

> I am picturing in my mind's eye someone beating you on the dome of your skull with an oversized elementary science textbook.

Yeah well that's not going to work, obviously. You can't have both elementary science textbooks and mind-projecting them through a non-physical mystical plane of existence.

And even if it could be done, it'd be highly unethical. Imagine a non-corporeal entity finding out they've been violating physical conservation laws during their whole existence.

Re: When a crow dies, the other crows investigate the cause of death (2015)

#239
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, ideally "leave no trace" and "don't mess with wildlife" are adhered to when in nature edit: it's also illegal in national parks, carrying up to a $5000 fine and six months in jail

Yes, I have spent a lot of time out in nature and parks, and I generally am aware of not leaving a trace or litter. However, with something like a banana peel, I'd rather it end up as tree food the in a landfill, so I usually toss them in bushes.

Please don't do that with banana or orange peels, they remain present for a long time. I have no problem personally with people tossing apple cores in more remote, little-visited areas (though it still makes sense to crack down on such things a bit more in heavily visited areas like National Parks) but various peels don't rot well and remain in place.

Re: When a crow dies, the other crows investigate the cause of death (2015)

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's entirely unnecessary cruelty. Taking a weapon with you so you can retaliate after you provoke an attack isn't a defensive strategy.

Cleaning up bird corpses near human habitation habitat isn't necessary? You have curious ideas of what's necessary.

That's a ridiculous interpretation of what I said. Nobody I know has ever had to bludgeon an animal to clean their yard, not even the person whose story spawned this whole thread.
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