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Ethereum hard fork successful with mining majority

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101–110 of 135 posts

Re: Ethereum hard fork successful with mining majority

#101
There's an interesting parallel between the arguments being made here and the argument that Schnier made against government controlled backdoors.

Even if we suppose that only reasonable warrants would be granted for the use of such a backdoor, the backdoor is software, and does exactly what it's programmed to do - as anyone whose written software knows, this is sometimes not the same as what it's supposed to do. This means that bad guys can readily exploit any backdoor. A human would reject such accesses as obviously unwarranted, but a computer doing exactly what it's programmed to do won't.

Similarly, in Ethereum, a contract does exactly what it's programmed to do, not what it's meant to do. When malicious actors exploit this for personal gain, our reaction is that we should to "fix" the currency to be in line with our human judgement about what it ought or ought not be used for.

In both cases, you can't have your cake and eat it.

With backdoors, you can either have a simple, automatic means of investigating suspects, or you can have human judgement as to whether or not such searches have value that exceeds the value of an individual's right to privacy.

In Ethereum, you can either have autonomous and decentralized contracts, or you can have contracts that are subject to human judgement and values.

I'm still very much in "Micheal Jackson eats popcorn" mode with respect to Ethereum, but at this point it seems like it's trying to accomplish two things that are fundamentally incompatible.

Re: Ethereum hard fork successful with mining majority

#102
post #6

Looking in from the outside as someone with no involvement with Ethereum, I really don't understand how the people behind it can justify using their privileged position as developers and community leaders to try to undo this. They spent a lot of time talking about how "the code is the contract"... until they stood to be negatively impacted on a personal level by allowing the literal meaning of the code to stand. I'm…

Disclaimer: I don't really have much of a stake in ethereum, although I made some money off of it during the craziness last month (I cashed out when early warnings about the DAO hit hn, and bough back in when it was at the bottom, and cashed out again) > I'm not sure how anyone could have any confidence in this system after that. I think the situation is the opposite. After the DAO there were broad calls criticising…

> Disclaimer: I don't really have much of a stake in ethereum, although I made some money off of it during the craziness last month (I cashed out when early warnings about the DAO hit hn, and bough back in when it was at the bottom, and cashed out again)

Ah, the old disclaimerbrag. Other classics:

> Disclaimer: I own Apple stock, in fact I bought thousands of shares in 2002.

> Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, but I am a doctor.

> Disclaimer: I'm a member of the Democratic party, in fact I was a guest at Hillary's daughter's wedding.

Re: Ethereum hard fork successful with mining majority

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's fine. Those figures just say that many people are ok with whatever. Ultimately: If you don't like it, then you can leave. And if you aren't paying attention, then, well, you obviously don't care enough about that asset.

There we go, just wanted you to backpeddle on this "majority" thing.

As the parent poster said, there was a majority consent. Much more than 50% considered that this was okay, they also "joined the fork", so the things that these And also it's quite plausible that if the same number of people, the same people would implement a technically identical hard fork with the same process but with a different "socioeconomic" result and justification, then they wouldn't have gotten the same majority consent that they did in this case.

Re: Ethereum hard fork successful with mining majority

#104
post #2

To me, I think this represents a failure of the currency. Either the code is the final word on the contract or not. This process seems to give a cartel of people the power to revoke transactions on a whim. Who would commit to building anything in an environment like that?

On the contrary, this represents a success for the currency - it represents a failure of the concept "the code is the final word on the contract", which the Ethereum community judged as incompatible with a good future of their currency and threw out this concept.

Apparently when considering "Who would commit to building anything in an environment like that?" in practice, then an environment where the code is the final word on a contract is even less desirable than a suboptimal environment where, as you say, "a cartel of people the power to revoke transactions on a whim".

Re: Ethereum hard fork successful with mining majority

#105
post #20
post #8

Someone probably has another exploit queued up, so they can immediately create the need for another fork. Ethereum contracts have a giant target on them for security researchers who want to earn money.

If (huge if, I know) people learn from what just happened, there at least won't be another $100 million target to exploit. The NewDAO should see much less investment until it's actually proven. Of course, it may well not happen that way.

$100m is not really neccessary, $100k would be enough for me while also being small enough to ensure that in this case noone bothers with a fork.

Re: Ethereum hard fork successful with mining majority

#106
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prior to this fork, I had interest in Ethereum. I don't want to touch it now, out of both mistrust and the feeling that the developers are lacking in ethics. It really feels like a pyramid scheme if they're not willing to let the technology stand on its own. It's really a shame. Maybe some other group will fork the Ethereum code into a new cryptocurrency that can't have the blockchain forked as easily.

Ethereum is a human construct; written by humans, directed by humans, and facilitated by humans (no skynet has come along to do mining). Ipso facto, it is fallible just like humans. You think it is a bad thing that this has happened; I think it is a good thing. Now everyone is aware that the 51% can take control of the chain; you can't pretend any more that the code is the final arbiter, because it isn't. Black and w…

Democracy doesn't sucks less - it only sucks for less people.

Re: Ethereum hard fork successful with mining majority

#107
post #6

Looking in from the outside as someone with no involvement with Ethereum, I really don't understand how the people behind it can justify using their privileged position as developers and community leaders to try to undo this. They spent a lot of time talking about how "the code is the contract"... until they stood to be negatively impacted on a personal level by allowing the literal meaning of the code to stand. I'm…

Exactly... and if you reverse the roles, the hypocrisy just becomes more clear, to quote Emin Gün Sirer: "Had the attacker lost money by mistake, I am sure the devs would have had no difficulty appropriating his funds and saying "this is what happens in the brave new world of programmatic money flows." http://hackingdistributed.com/2016/06/17/thoughts-on-the-dao...

Emin supports some variant of a hard fork regardless.

Re: Ethereum hard fork successful with mining majority

#108
post #6

Looking in from the outside as someone with no involvement with Ethereum, I really don't understand how the people behind it can justify using their privileged position as developers and community leaders to try to undo this. They spent a lot of time talking about how "the code is the contract"... until they stood to be negatively impacted on a personal level by allowing the literal meaning of the code to stand. I'm…

The code is still the contract. The code says that the majority of mining determines the state of the blockchain. That hasn't changed.

The logic of "the code is the contract" is that whatever happens is in and of itself legal. You cannot break the law, you can only mold the law to conform to your current reality.

Re: Ethereum hard fork successful with mining majority

#109
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Foundation took no official position. Some of the lead developers supported the fork, some opposed it. The decision was made by the miners, by the exchanges (which decided to follow the miners), and indirectly by a public vote of ether holders. Vitalik expressed only a mild preference for the fork, and was careful to say that the opposition had good points and there would be no censorship of anyone. The fork code…

supporting the fork in the official client is very much taking an official position.

Not implementing the fork would be an official no-fork position, enforced on everyone running the client. Implementing the fork gives users the ability to choose.

The default was set pro-fork, but that was clearly the most popular option before the software was released. The real decision was made by the miners, and I think it'd be hard to argue that the miners weren't aware of the issue, or didn't have the technical chops to set the option however they liked.

Re: Ethereum hard fork successful with mining majority

#110
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be misunderstanding authority. Authority doesn't come from lording it over people, or making the best decisions. Authority comes from submission; as long as someone submits to you you have authority over them, likewise anything you submit to has authority over you. The submissive person in the relationship has all the power; they are the one who gets to say "stop". In this case the various arguments…

> Authority comes from submission; I don't think I quite agree with this, but I agree with something similar I suppose : Power comes from submission. (sorta) I believe that one can be under an authority which one does not choose to submit to. (relating more to how people should act than how they do act, compared to power) But, perhaps this is just using words differently without necessarily much disagreement about th…

"Respect my authoritah" vs. "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them"
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