Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#251

Post by ScottBurson » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 7:33 PM UTC

iamdave wrote: post #168

smokeyj wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are a member of a disadvantaged group Short, fat, scrawny, aging, young, poor, immigrant, religious, atheist, nose-picker. Maybe identifying as a card carrying member of a "disadvantaged" group isn't the healthiest outlook to have.

>Maybe identifying as a card carrying member of a "disadvantaged" group isn't the healthiest outlook to have. Maybe some people don't walk around looking for every opportunity to trumpet their social group like an American Express card and just have certain realities that they deal with that individuals who aren't say a minority, a woman or physically disabled aren't privy to and sometimes have baggage thrust upon th…

Ah, I get it, you're not talking about the comment itself, you're talking about the behavior the comment is addressing.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#252

Post by wpietri » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 7:34 PM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #216

busterarm wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would actually argue that classism is far and away the worst problem in this industry. It just plays out in ways that you don't expect. Hiring mostly grads from top schools is exactly that. In my circle are a lot of junior and fresh out of school developers and one guy I know who killed it in his interview was ultimately not hired and told it was because he didn't "look like a developer". He dressed in normal busin…

> hoodie-wearing, ping-pong-playing frat-bro, drink every day at 4pm culture. A lot of people, including myself, would be glad to be excluded from such a place. I don't wear hoodies, play ping pong, act like a bro, or drink every day, and I especially don't come to work to do those things. It's nice when an office has beer taps and ping pong tables, but those things don't bring me in to the office every day. Good cow…

> A lot of people, including myself, would be glad to be excluded from such a place.

Me too, but then I'm far enough along in my career that I have other options. I mentor a number of younger people, and it's very concerning to me that they might have to work at a place like that. Or, worse, get turned down because they're not the right demographic.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#253

Post by jondubois » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 7:34 PM UTC

smt88 wrote: post #73

jondubois wrote: post #61

I don't think women have it particularly hard in tech. Some aspects are harder but other aspects are easier.

Some of the "harder" aspects are being sexually harassed and intimidated in ways that aren't possible to do to men. I have a friend who was raped by her boss, and then he raped another coworker. They were afraid of getting fired, so they didn't tell anyone. Finally her friend spoke up and was fired. (This was at a VC-backed, Silicon Valley firm, by the way.)

That sounds terrible, but these things are quite rare. They should have gone straight to the police and pressed criminal charges.

As a woman in the office, your main issue is that some male bosses won't take you seriously.

On the other hand, if you're a woman, many bosses (female bosses and also some sympathetic male bosses) might give you extra help/special treatment (which is fair enough).

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#254

Post by kaitai » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 7:34 PM UTC

zo1 wrote: post #172

wicker wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like a source for that, since my understanding was the opposite.[1] Quoting from the abstract: "In a randomized double-blind study (n = 127), science faculty from research-intensive universities rated the application materials of a student—who was randomly assigned either a male or female name—for a laboratory manager position. Faculty participants rated the male applicant as significantly more competent and hire…

I would argue that it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. It was great and necessary when women really were disadvantaged. But now that they are generally "equal", it's detrimental to them. I.e. It's entirely plausible that society is self-correcting against the unfairly-claimed bias by...being biased. One can "factually" be certain that men are not "favoured", therefore they can treat men exactly as they see it.…

So over the four years since the study quoted was received for consideration for publication, we've totally overcorrected?

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#255

Post by sevenless » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 7:36 PM UTC

smokeyj wrote: post #248

iamdave wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm by no means asserting it isn't reasonable, In fact I'm using it to bolster my point in suggesting an opposite side to the same coin of "card carrying member of x" in a manner that demands attention to perhaps what informs and enforces the perception of "identifying as a card carrying member of %group%" with a dash more nuance than what exists on the surface. For some people, their identity and association as a me…

Not exactly sure the point you're making, but I really enjoy Paul Grahams essay on the topic of identity. http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html > Most people reading this will already be fairly tolerant. But there is a step beyond thinking of yourself as x but tolerating y: not even to consider yourself an x. The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you.

You don't get to choose all of those labels.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#256

Post by twblalock » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 7:36 PM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #216

busterarm wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would actually argue that classism is far and away the worst problem in this industry. It just plays out in ways that you don't expect. Hiring mostly grads from top schools is exactly that. In my circle are a lot of junior and fresh out of school developers and one guy I know who killed it in his interview was ultimately not hired and told it was because he didn't "look like a developer". He dressed in normal busin…

> hoodie-wearing, ping-pong-playing frat-bro, drink every day at 4pm culture. A lot of people, including myself, would be glad to be excluded from such a place. I don't wear hoodies, play ping pong, act like a bro, or drink every day, and I especially don't come to work to do those things. It's nice when an office has beer taps and ping pong tables, but those things don't bring me in to the office every day. Good cow…

I'm with you on this one. I actively avoid applying to companies that advertise their "culture" as a perk of working there. I want to work in a workplace, not a daycare center for underdeveloped young men. And I certainly don't want to go on company retreats where everyone wears the same T-shirt.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#257

Post by gadlfy » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 7:36 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #120

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow I don't have anywhere near the empathy for those yokels mouthing off, that others seem to have. Real dipshits. No way they are innocently unthoughtful or unconsidered. They seem to have issues.

> yokels A yokel is, according to the New Oxford American Dictionary, "an uneducated and unsophisticated person from the countryside". Do you have any reason to actually believe they were from the countryside, or do you just assume that if someone is a dipshit they obviously must be country people?

Semantics aside, how do you feel about these individual's behavior?

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#258

Post by onetwotree » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 7:37 PM UTC

prodigal_erik wrote: post #237

onetwotree wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fewer women are interested because they don't want to work, go to school, and socialize in sexist environments. While I'm sure that not all "tech environments" are sexist, enough of them are to convince women not to pursue careers in this field. That's a disadvantage, especially because tech careers are luxury careers these days.

I spent a lot of my teenage years hunched over a Commodore 64 Programmer's Reference Guide. The "environment" was me and a computer that didn't care about my sex. Certainly nobody encouraged me, least of all my friends and family. Where were the teenage girls who shared my obsession? For that matter, where are the women who hack for fun and ignore the shit the industry is up to?

I want you to help me understand something.

Why do you feel the need to rationalize away the fact that getting involved in tech is something that was easier for you because you're a dude? It seems like there's this sense in which people like you believe that by admitting to being privileged will somehow diminish your accomplishments. I've got news for ya: it won't. You seem to feel as though there's a zero sum game, where raising the accessibility of what we've achieved to people who aren't like us will somehow harm you. Again, it won't. Where does this fear come from? Why not love?

I too spent a lot of time learning to code alone with my Macintosh Classic. However, nobody ever told me this was something boys didn't do. I had a bunch of (male) nerd friends who thought it was pretty cool. Rather importantly I didn't have a bunch of ugly, creepy girls slobbering over "that cuyuute nerd boy". When I took a (worthless) programming class in high school, everyone in the room was the same gender as me. When I took CS classes in college, almost everyone in the room was the same gender as me. It was a perfectly normal thing for a dude like me to be into. In the workplace, nobody remarks on my gender. I'm not a "diversity hire". I don't have anything to prove.

But my reaction to realizing this is that I fucking love my career, I love hacking, and I want to share what I love with everyone, to make it as easily available as it was to me. Why would anyone not want this?

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#259

Post by pmiller2 » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 7:38 PM UTC

noir_lord wrote: post #227

pmiller2 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hoodie-wearing, ping-pong-playing frat-bro, drink every day at 4pm culture. A lot of people, including myself, would be glad to be excluded from such a place. I don't wear hoodies, play ping pong, act like a bro, or drink every day, and I especially don't come to work to do those things. It's nice when an office has beer taps and ping pong tables, but those things don't bring me in to the office every day. Good cow…

Add me to that list. All I want from a workplace is a good computer, somewhere quiet to work (preferably with a door but I don't want to spark that debate, it's tiresome), an efficient manager who ensures a) everyone knows what they should be doing b) communicates a) effectively c) clears obstacles. I never found it so I started a company (of which I'm one of two employees), it's not without challenges but it largely…

What are these "doors" that you speak of? I've seen them on the entrances to conference rooms and, of course, to get in the office itself, but I can't imagine why anyone would want one for themselves. ;)

Are you hiring? (I'm only somewhat joking there. I'd practically kill for a small office of my own.)

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#260

Post by kaitai » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 7:39 PM UTC

prodigal_erik wrote: post #237

onetwotree wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fewer women are interested because they don't want to work, go to school, and socialize in sexist environments. While I'm sure that not all "tech environments" are sexist, enough of them are to convince women not to pursue careers in this field. That's a disadvantage, especially because tech careers are luxury careers these days.

I spent a lot of my teenage years hunched over a Commodore 64 Programmer's Reference Guide. The "environment" was me and a computer that didn't care about my sex. Certainly nobody encouraged me, least of all my friends and family. Where were the teenage girls who shared my obsession? For that matter, where are the women who hack for fun and ignore the shit the industry is up to?

A notable conversation with my mother: Why don't you call your female friends more? maybe sit & talk on the phone with them like you're supposed to? we're a little worried that you're a girl who just wants to read and play with computers.

This concern didn't last too long & I got plenty of eventual encouragement on the STEM side, but my mom was worried I was abnormal and would never have a happy, successful female life because I was playing with computers instead of people. Women are supposed to socialize and be caring and nurturing.

So where were the girls like you? Hiding from their parents.