Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#221

Post by disgruntledphd2 » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 6:48 PM UTC

zo1 wrote: post #172

wicker wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like a source for that, since my understanding was the opposite.[1] Quoting from the abstract: "In a randomized double-blind study (n = 127), science faculty from research-intensive universities rated the application materials of a student—who was randomly assigned either a male or female name—for a laboratory manager position. Faculty participants rated the male applicant as significantly more competent and hire…

I would argue that it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. It was great and necessary when women really were disadvantaged. But now that they are generally "equal", it's detrimental to them. I.e. It's entirely plausible that society is self-correcting against the unfairly-claimed bias by...being biased. One can "factually" be certain that men are not "favoured", therefore they can treat men exactly as they see it.…

I dunno. I work for a pretty liberal company, that definitely tries to avoid -isms and what not. I've also seen the same ideas from men vs women given far more credibility when presented by a male speaker. I find it somewhat disturbing. That allied with a lot of the scientific evidence of bias (look at the IAT studies, all 12mn of them) leads me to believe that this is still a problem.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#222

Post by forgetsusername » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 6:48 PM UTC

AngrySkillzz wrote: post #91

btilly wrote: post #23

I personally know several successful professional women who have a policy of refusing to belong to any women-only groups. Their reason is that in their experience such groups are populated by people seeking reassurance. The result is that they offer the "support" of lowered expectations. Which won't help you succeed. One also pointed out to me that if a group of men were to form a men's only business club, that would…

If you are a member of a disadvantaged group, you often do not have the ability to identify as a professional first and a group member second. That is the effect of being disadvantaged. Other people will make your life seem primarily about being a group member. Think about dealing with sexist/sexually-charged comments, racial tension at the office. Even if you want to just be a professional, other people will get in…

>If you are a member of a disadvantaged group >Maybe imagine what life would be like for one of those people

Who here isn't a member of some disadvantaged group? Being "white" and "male" doesn't mean you're home free. So I don't need to "imagine" being one of "those people"; I am one.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#223

Post by ap0 » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 6:49 PM UTC

Showing that women have great technical aptitude by giving a legitimately interesting tech talk is much better for the cause of promoting diversity than just talking about being a woman or minority in tech, IMO.

I worked at a large online retailer that catered primarily to women, and internally there was a large push to hire more women. We hired two women on my team. One was fantastic, one was horrible. The fantastic one passed the interview loop without reservation, and would have been hired regardless of her gender. The other did not do as well and multiple people had reservations, but she was hired anyway. She was an immediate burden and terminated after three months.

The first one didn't need any sort of handicap for being a woman -- she was qualified and competent. The other one just didn't belong in this role. But management aimed for diversity over competence, and ended up hurting morale.

Treating people like equals is the best way to achieve equality. Don't insult them, and don't let those who legitimately don't have the skills necessary through because of their identity. Seems pretty common sense to me.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#224

Post by nucleardog » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 6:53 PM UTC

redthrowaway wrote: post #211

kajecounterhack wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't be a problem if inequality wasn't influenced strongly by negative factors for women. The tech industry is rife with evidence of hostility toward women; IT Barbie and gendered toy marketing are other examples of how women are not on equal footing with regards to entering this industry. And there is also the problem of women being paid less to do the same job. To paint a picture that says the current landsc…

>And there is also the problem of women being paid less to do the same job. How many times does the "wage gap" need to be debunked before people stop spreading it? http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/01/no-women-do... http://time.com/3222543/wage-pay-gap-myth-feminism/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-ga... http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gende... http://www.f…

I find it's a really convenient indicator that it's time to excuse yourself from a conversation.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#225

Post by cocktailpeanuts » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 6:54 PM UTC

I'm glad there actually is a competent woman who can say this out loud. Nowadays it's impossible to say anything against "We need more women in tech" without being called a sexist.

I do realize it is harder for women but the world is not a fair place. Poor people who were born to poor parents are born into an unfair world. A white guy or asian guy who really wants to play basketball in NBA finds himself in an unfair situation. But that's what powers these people. A lot of successful people came from bad background because they grew up being sick of this unfairness and they tried hard to get there.

To use the NBA example, you never see Jeremy Lin or Yaoming giving talks about how "We need more asian basketball players in NBA". They are well aware of how that's how it is, but still managed to succeed by pushing themselves hard.

Again, I do realize it's unfair, but if I were someone in an unfair situation I would spend 100% of my time working hard to overcome it, instead of using my precious time thinking and talking about how my group needs to be more well represented.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#226

Post by mpweiher » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 6:54 PM UTC

iamdave wrote: post #168

smokeyj wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are a member of a disadvantaged group Short, fat, scrawny, aging, young, poor, immigrant, religious, atheist, nose-picker. Maybe identifying as a card carrying member of a "disadvantaged" group isn't the healthiest outlook to have.

>Maybe identifying as a card carrying member of a "disadvantaged" group isn't the healthiest outlook to have. Maybe some people don't walk around looking for every opportunity to trumpet their social group like an American Express card and just have certain realities that they deal with that individuals who aren't say a minority, a woman or physically disabled aren't privy to and sometimes have baggage thrust upon th…

The comment you pointed to seems very reasonable to me, I am assuming from the rest of your comment that you don't think it is.

We all have such realities, and typically few if any other people realise what's going on. Just be kind. To everyone (note to self: be better at this).

It's not specific to any particular group (though: apparently short men have it quite a bit worse than other "protected" groups: http://www.jonathanrauch.com/jrauch_articles/height_discrimi... )

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#227

Post by noir_lord » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 6:54 PM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #216

busterarm wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would actually argue that classism is far and away the worst problem in this industry. It just plays out in ways that you don't expect. Hiring mostly grads from top schools is exactly that. In my circle are a lot of junior and fresh out of school developers and one guy I know who killed it in his interview was ultimately not hired and told it was because he didn't "look like a developer". He dressed in normal busin…

> hoodie-wearing, ping-pong-playing frat-bro, drink every day at 4pm culture. A lot of people, including myself, would be glad to be excluded from such a place. I don't wear hoodies, play ping pong, act like a bro, or drink every day, and I especially don't come to work to do those things. It's nice when an office has beer taps and ping pong tables, but those things don't bring me in to the office every day. Good cow…

Add me to that list.

All I want from a workplace is a good computer, somewhere quiet to work (preferably with a door but I don't want to spark that debate, it's tiresome), an efficient manager who ensures a) everyone knows what they should be doing b) communicates a) effectively c) clears obstacles.

I never found it so I started a company (of which I'm one of two employees), it's not without challenges but it largely beats working for other people.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#228

Post by triplesec » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 6:54 PM UTC

The article makes a great point that just being a woman doesn't make you a good speaker about [the sociological problems] of women in tech. Rather than have her out of her skillset, hire her to talk about databases, or other parts of her expertise, and hire academics, HR and others (of both genders, according to skill relevance) qualified to talk about social-tech challenges.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#229

Post by iamdave » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 6:56 PM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #226

iamdave wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Maybe identifying as a card carrying member of a "disadvantaged" group isn't the healthiest outlook to have. Maybe some people don't walk around looking for every opportunity to trumpet their social group like an American Express card and just have certain realities that they deal with that individuals who aren't say a minority, a woman or physically disabled aren't privy to and sometimes have baggage thrust upon th…

The comment you pointed to seems very reasonable to me, I am assuming from the rest of your comment that you don't think it is. We all have such realities, and typically few if any other people realise what's going on. Just be kind. To everyone (note to self: be better at this). It's not specific to any particular group (though: apparently short men have it quite a bit worse than other "protected" groups: http://www.…

I'm by no means asserting it isn't reasonable, In fact I'm using it to bolster my point in suggesting an opposite side to the same coin of "card carrying member of x" in a manner that demands attention to perhaps what informs and enforces the perception of "identifying as a card carrying member of %group%" with a dash more nuance than what exists on the surface.

For some people, their identity and association as a member of %group% is something they outwardly display to be observed and consumed by others, and they have their reasons for it. For others, it's something they keep to themselves and prefer to carry on and be judged on the merits of their contributions to work and family, and they have their reasons for that. These things don't invalidate one another.

For others still, their association with %group% isn't something they choose, and is prominent and obvious by merely walking into a room and for good or ill, a person often finds themselves navigating all sorts of assumptions, guesses and biases about that association whether or not they can control it. That was the thrust of my comment.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#230

Post by orbitur » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 6:57 PM UTC

junko wrote: post #201

btilly wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Argue for your limitations, and surely they're yours. To the extent that you can focus on what is under your personal control, you are likely to be happier and more productive. To the extent that you focus on things that are not under your control and can't be changed, you will be unhappy, unproductive, and will have a built-in excuse for your failures. This is not an either-or choice, it is a spectrum. And the farth…

I sortof agree with your "toughen up!" stance; as a member of a minority group this is actually practical - but only when I've developed sufficiently thick skin. I've worked in organisations where I was blatantly ignored/sidelined (I'll spare the details of how I came to conclude that it was due to discrimination rather than other factors) and that was pretty demoralising. I share your opinion, but count my blessing…

Fellow minority and I agree with a toughen up stance as well, as I think we do have to toughen up to actually get ahead.

But that isn't a reason to deny people help, deny people the chance to say "hey, look I'm feeling really alone right now". I wouldn't be as "tough" as I am now if it weren't for a few people who gave me a hand when I truly needed it. I wouldn't be where I am without reading a ton of blogposts by other marginalized people who feel the same way as I did.

There are, no doubt, people who like to wallow in their insecurities, but they aren't any worse than the people who say the marginalized should just suck it up and work harder, or that people who feel marginalized should shut up.