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Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

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Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#201

Post by junko »

btilly wrote: post #124
AngrySkillzz wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a member of a disadvantaged group, you often do not have the ability to identify as a professional first and a group member second. That is the effect of being disadvantaged. Other people will make your life seem primarily about being a group member. Think about dealing with sexist/sexually-charged comments, racial tension at the office. Even if you want to just be a professional, other people will get in…

Argue for your limitations, and surely they're yours. To the extent that you can focus on what is under your personal control, you are likely to be happier and more productive. To the extent that you focus on things that are not under your control and can't be changed, you will be unhappy, unproductive, and will have a built-in excuse for your failures. This is not an either-or choice, it is a spectrum. And the farth…

I sortof agree with your "toughen up!" stance; as a member of a minority group this is actually practical - but only when I've developed sufficiently thick skin. I've worked in organisations where I was blatantly ignored/sidelined (I'll spare the details of how I came to conclude that it was due to discrimination rather than other factors) and that was pretty demoralising. I share your opinion, but count my blessing that I am able to carry it out.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#202

Post by Grishnakh »

busterarm wrote: post #187
ionforce wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people are completely lost on the idea of intent vs the result. If we're not 50/50 on gender balance apparently we're all super racist.

Sexist. ;) I do wish we made as much of an effort breaking racial and class barriers in this industry. Unfortunately I have sat in on hiring discussions trying to argue for why we should hire the strongest engineer and my colleagues in the room are trying to come up with reasons not to hire because the candidate was black and/or working-class.

You had colleagues who didn't want to hire someone just because they were "working class"??? Seriously? Were these colleagues a bunch of fedora-wearing hipsters or something?

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#203

Post by kbenson »

Wintamute wrote: post #169
FungalRaincloud wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to see the studies you're referencing. However, taking what you're saying as truth (a thing I am reluctant to do), I still find it a big leap to claim that the reason that there are fewer women in tech is that fewer women are interested in tech, and I would still be inclined to believe that women in tech are at a disadvantage. Proving lack of interest seems difficult, at best - for instance, is it that w…

I think the statement that on average women are less likely to be interested in tech careers is likely reasonable. For example, take veterinary science ... this is a rigorous and demanding area of study previously dominated by men, but now dominated by women. You can Google about this yourself, but here's an article I just found [1]. So why has this happened in the veterinary sciences, but not tech? One answer could…

> perfectly capable of moving into and dominating a technical field when that chimes with some aspect of female nature.

It doesn't have to be female nature. It could just as easily be culturally encouraged nature, or a combination of the two (a culturally encouraged aspect that was originally developed from human nature, in a self reinforcing loop).

> The male predilection towards abstract and systematic thinking could in my opinion go a long way to explain their over-representation in the tech industry. I think those are uncontroversial statements...

They should be uncontroversial. It's obvious there are actual differences between male and female minds, and plenty of studies have shown physiological differences. Unfortunately, bringing science of this nature into a discussion about equality is often immediately vilified. On the other hand, this information can be used for the basis of some fairly horrendous reasoning, so it's easy to see why people are quick to discount it.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#204

Post by jesterman81 »

pselbert wrote: post #32

Sandy Metz, of "Practical Object Oriented Design in Ruby" [1] fame made a comment about this on The Bikeshed[2] recently. She stated that she refuses to make reference to gender when she is giving her talks, though her gender is ultimately what got her the opportunity to write a book and talk in the first place. Ultimately she is regarded as an amazing teacher and a dynamic speaker, not because she is a woman in tech…

100%. I value her work because its well done. Not because she is a women.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#205

Post by logfromblammo »

busterarm wrote: post #189
skylan_q wrote: post #188

If there is no gender parity, there is a problem. No, there isn't. We don't have a "gender parity problem" in nursing, pre-k education, garbage collection, nor boilermaking. Just because it isn't 50/50 doesn't mean it's a problem.

Where's my Barbie Sanitation Shift Supervisor and matching Ken Stay-At-Home Parent/Blogger dolls?

They're in your fabric and sewing machine, waiting for you to let them out.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#206

Post by mpweiher »

busterarm wrote: post #189
skylan_q wrote: post #188

If there is no gender parity, there is a problem. No, there isn't. We don't have a "gender parity problem" in nursing, pre-k education, garbage collection, nor boilermaking. Just because it isn't 50/50 doesn't mean it's a problem.

Where's my Barbie Sanitation Shift Supervisor and matching Ken Stay-At-Home Parent/Blogger dolls?

They'll be there if and when customers demand them.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#207

Post by kajecounterhack »

redthrowaway wrote: post #192
jordigh wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pointless to argue about whom to blame as it is to defend oneself against accusations of blame. Fix the problem, not the blame. If there is no gender parity, there is a problem. You didn't do it, I didn't do it, but it still needs to be fixed.

>If there is no gender parity, there is a problem. This seems to be an extraordinary claim made in the complete absence of evidence. Is it a problem that there are more women going into early childhood education or biology, but more men going into petroleum engineering? Why? Why aren't men and women allowed to express their preferences without it being pathologized?

It wouldn't be a problem if inequality wasn't influenced strongly by negative factors for women. The tech industry is rife with evidence of hostility toward women; IT Barbie and gendered toy marketing are other examples of how women are not on equal footing with regards to entering this industry.

And there is also the problem of women being paid less to do the same job.

To paint a picture that says the current landscape is "normal" is to overlook a lot of broken things.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#208

Post by busterarm »

Grishnakh wrote: post #202
busterarm wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexist. ;) I do wish we made as much of an effort breaking racial and class barriers in this industry. Unfortunately I have sat in on hiring discussions trying to argue for why we should hire the strongest engineer and my colleagues in the room are trying to come up with reasons not to hire because the candidate was black and/or working-class.

You had colleagues who didn't want to hire someone just because they were "working class"??? Seriously? Were these colleagues a bunch of fedora-wearing hipsters or something?

I would actually argue that classism is far and away the worst problem in this industry.

It just plays out in ways that you don't expect. Hiring mostly grads from top schools is exactly that.

In my circle are a lot of junior and fresh out of school developers and one guy I know who killed it in his interview was ultimately not hired and told it was because he didn't "look like a developer". He dressed in normal business casual attire. Another friend of mine who is a significantly worse developer interviewed (and struggled through his interview) for the same job and ultimately was hired because he fit in with their hoodie-wearing, ping-pong-playing frat-bro, drink every day at 4pm culture.

There's a fine line between "culture fit" and "cultural homogeny". Fortunately I know that hiring a diverse team is the best way to cultivate a strong team.

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#209

Post by busterarm »

logfromblammo wrote: post #205
busterarm wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's my Barbie Sanitation Shift Supervisor and matching Ken Stay-At-Home Parent/Blogger dolls?

They're in your fabric and sewing machine, waiting for you to let them out.

I'm a man and I own a sewing machine! And I use it!

Re: Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech

#210

Post by busterarm »

mpweiher wrote: post #206
busterarm wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's my Barbie Sanitation Shift Supervisor and matching Ken Stay-At-Home Parent/Blogger dolls?

They'll be there if and when customers demand them.

That's pretty much my point.
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