Live data from Hacker News

Is full-time work bad for our brains?

bbc.com

221–229 of 229 posts

Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#221
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because there is a fairly strong correlation with unemployment and cognitive indicators You're arguing that there's an endogeneity effect -- that poor cognition causes less working? That's a common problem. The authors discuss their use of an instrumental variable technique to avoid this issue. > parabola is already being "forced down" near hours worked = 0 Not sure what you mean. Typically a model like this includ…

You'll learn a lot more if you ask, instead of "what could be wrong about what this person is saying", you ask "what could be right about it?"

That's exactly what I'm asking for: a clearer explanation.

I don't believe the paper's conclusion, but I don't understand your criticism of it. If you're saying the estimated curve is inappropriate, a better argument would be that they should include more terms of the work-hours Taylor expansion to get a better fit. Or perhaps there are confounding variables left out of the model.

Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#222
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time to sell and leave. And if that is really the equity structure, make sure you re-negotiate that with the board before talking about leaving, as part of being a C officer.

Can't sell except for the aforementioned £60. Not £60k, £60 - the nominal value of the shares. The only way I can leave and keep my equity is if I die. If I attempt to have that conversation in a board meeting they'll know what's up and will probably fire me - in which case no severance, not even the £60. There's a third party hnw investor who came in a few years ago who's gone from arms length to "where the fuck are…

> he sees me as a troublemaker as I do all the talking in board meetings (cofounder is taciturn)

Okay, you need to figure out who are your allies on your board. Which of the board members espouse the more aggressive profile that you wish to have? You need to approach them privately to discuss how to move the needle. Board meetings are where decisions are rubber-stamped; the real talking happens before the meeting, in one on one conversations.

I mean at this point, you've got nothing to lose, right?

Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't sell except for the aforementioned £60. Not £60k, £60 - the nominal value of the shares. The only way I can leave and keep my equity is if I die. If I attempt to have that conversation in a board meeting they'll know what's up and will probably fire me - in which case no severance, not even the £60. There's a third party hnw investor who came in a few years ago who's gone from arms length to "where the fuck are…

> he sees me as a troublemaker as I do all the talking in board meetings (cofounder is taciturn) Okay, you need to figure out who are your allies on your board. Which of the board members espouse the more aggressive profile that you wish to have? You need to approach them privately to discuss how to move the needle. Board meetings are where decisions are rubber-stamped; the real talking happens before the meeting, in…

Just the three of us. Those decisions are rubber stamped in boards - I put forth plans for growth, the investor director negotiates and approves, and then I fail to deliver - I see this as my own failing, despite the reason being things like cofounder dismissing a newly hired hiring manager while I'm on holiday because "we don't need to hire".

That said if I sit in a board and point the finger, I'm the ass, not him - and it is after all me that has failed to deliver on my self-imposed initiatives, regardless of what I think the reason is. It can be argued that one can always try harder, but my will has been attrited by this over the years.

Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#224
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time to sell and leave. And if that is really the equity structure, make sure you re-negotiate that with the board before talking about leaving, as part of being a C officer.

Can't sell except for the aforementioned £60. Not £60k, £60 - the nominal value of the shares. The only way I can leave and keep my equity is if I die. If I attempt to have that conversation in a board meeting they'll know what's up and will probably fire me - in which case no severance, not even the £60. There's a third party hnw investor who came in a few years ago who's gone from arms length to "where the fuck are…

No amount of money is worth your sanity -- or your life.

Sounds to me like you need to be spending all your spare time looking for another job. If you can get an offer, the decision will be much easier.

Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he sees me as a troublemaker as I do all the talking in board meetings (cofounder is taciturn) Okay, you need to figure out who are your allies on your board. Which of the board members espouse the more aggressive profile that you wish to have? You need to approach them privately to discuss how to move the needle. Board meetings are where decisions are rubber-stamped; the real talking happens before the meeting, in…

Just the three of us. Those decisions are rubber stamped in boards - I put forth plans for growth, the investor director negotiates and approves, and then I fail to deliver - I see this as my own failing, despite the reason being things like cofounder dismissing a newly hired hiring manager while I'm on holiday because "we don't need to hire". That said if I sit in a board and point the finger, I'm the ass, not him -…

> That said if I sit in a board and point the finger, I'm the ass, not him

Really?

Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid I don't think you are understanding my point, but apparently it is a difficult one to make. I'm unfortunately too busy to make it clearer, so I will just leave you with a koan. Why not include a third order term in the regression? What about an n-th order term? What assumptions do we "bake into" the results of a statistical regression as an effect of including, or not, any function on the original data? Th…

Why not include insignificant terms in the regression? Maybe because they're insignificant? I understand what the regression is doing. The authors understand. You do not, though. You've already admitting not to having a background in stats, yet you keep throwing around words like "significance" and "model fitting" without having the faintest clue what they mean mathematically. I'm sorry, but I can't fit several semes…

I have still not given up hope that this conversation is useful for somebody.

Here is my redoubled effort.

Part of what gives me hope is that the CEO of a prominent data analysis company, who does have a background in statistics and data analysis, and has a PhD in computational mathematics from Stanford, said that my original comment was "amazing" and that "the complacency of selecting variables is lost on the hive mind."

And, so, while I have diminished hope that I'll be able to get through to you this time, at the moment, since things seem to have regressed to statements asserting that I don't understand the "faintest clue" of things like model fitting and significance (this is absolutely false, actually, I'm quite deeply aware of the meaning), in fact this conversation does have at least some merit, even if outside of this, surprisingly argumentative, Hacker News context.

Including a specific number of terms in a Taylor series expansion (as per the suggestion of xapata, or in any expansion, be it a Fourier expansion, a Lagrange expansion, or whatever, is a somewhat perilous choice that can distort the meaning. Any form of model fitting has this problem. But one cannot dismiss all other models that could be fit to the data as insignificant in this case!

In particular, choice of a quadratic function for fitting, using constant, linear, and quadratic terms, automatically distorts this data, because of the nature of the data, where there is a anti-correlation between unemployment and cognitive indicators.

This is demonstrated by the following example, which took me about 5 minutes to construct -- and bit more to explain and write about here.

Suppose the data show a completely flat response for IQ versus working hours, except for the unemployed population, which has a lower set of cognitive indicators.

The data and curve are linked here.

https://mycurvefit.com/share/0530c696-2eb0-4f9f-8af1-3277c5b...

In this example, the data shows no optimum number of working hours, and IQ doesn't diminish for more hours worked. But the quadratic fit does suggest this: a peak for IQ near 25 hours of hours worked.

Obviously, this example is not the data the study worked on. The study doesn't directly share the data. But, from the graphs on page 20, the example I constructed is quite like the data. The part-time and full-time work probability density curves are practically identical to one another -- they are right on top of each other. The only really significant difference is between the working and not working populations.

Yet, the authors do not hedge their findings.

"Our findings show that there is a non-linearity in the effect of working hours on cognitive functioning. For working hours up to around 25 hours a week, an increase in working hours has a positive impact on cognitive functioning. However, when working hours exceed 25 hours per week, an increase in working hours has a negative impact on cognition."

and the study concludes "Our study highlights that too much work can have adverse effects on cognitive functioning."

In my judgment, this analysis does not demonstrate this, even though it would be convenient for me for this to be true.

PS:

Because they did two stage least squares, and instead of directly using working hours they used fitted values, there is a slight adjustment that needs to be done to the example above, in order to be relevant.

It is not entirely obvious exactly how well the anti-correlation for cognitive indicators will carry through after "working hours" are estimated by regression with the variables:

Vacancy rate, Inner regional, Outer regional, Remote, Very remote, Number of dependent, Children, Parent is still alive, Other public benefits, Australian citizen, Work experience, Ownhouse.

I mean literally the best connection there is is in "other public benefits" which is a variable with an effect measured in dozens of hours of work per week. Everything else is a far smaller effect. So, effectively, what the second stage of least squares is really doing, is doing a regression on the variables about versus cognitive indicators; and really mostly, upon whether or not they receive public benefits.

A large fraction of those people who have public benefits will have their "estimated work hours" estimated below 0, then will be reassigned to 0 for the purposes of the final regression. Hence, if there is an anti-correlation for "receiving other public benefits" (their terminology) with cognitive indicators -- and there is -- it will appear that there is a significantly lower set of cognitive indicators for the instrument WH* that they estimate.

After that, the rest of my toy example is still quite apt -- there can be no effect in IQ as a function of WH* or WH (as measured) outside of the unemployed population, even though the quadratic analysis will suggest an optimum.

Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#227
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time to sell and leave. And if that is really the equity structure, make sure you re-negotiate that with the board before talking about leaving, as part of being a C officer.

Can't sell except for the aforementioned £60. Not £60k, £60 - the nominal value of the shares. The only way I can leave and keep my equity is if I die. If I attempt to have that conversation in a board meeting they'll know what's up and will probably fire me - in which case no severance, not even the £60. There's a third party hnw investor who came in a few years ago who's gone from arms length to "where the fuck are…

Thought about this some more. Reading between the lines a bit, so certainly, correct me if I get this wrong.

But it looks like this: your investors are a bigger problem than your partner. First they write this deal where you don't really own your equity, then they don't let you pay yourselves like owners. Seems to me you're really getting screwed. Seriously: what are you getting out of this job besides experience?

I'm afraid you're in the position of a wolf caught in a trap: you're going to have to chew your own leg off to get out. It'll hurt like all hell, but if you don't do it, you'll die.

Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't sell except for the aforementioned £60. Not £60k, £60 - the nominal value of the shares. The only way I can leave and keep my equity is if I die. If I attempt to have that conversation in a board meeting they'll know what's up and will probably fire me - in which case no severance, not even the £60. There's a third party hnw investor who came in a few years ago who's gone from arms length to "where the fuck are…

Thought about this some more. Reading between the lines a bit, so certainly, correct me if I get this wrong. But it looks like this: your investors are a bigger problem than your partner. First they write this deal where you don't really own your equity, then they don't let you pay yourselves like owners. Seems to me you're really getting screwed. Seriously: what are you getting out of this job besides experience? I'…

In fact, the more I think about this, the more fucked-up it seems. The investors have given you the illusion of owning part of this company, but it's a mirage. You have no way to benefit from that equity. You have no authority, you control no budget, you're paid a pittance, and the only way you can monetize your ostensible share of the company is by dying!

You've been taken, and it doesn't sound like there's anything you can do about it (IANAL; maybe you should consult one, but I'm not optimistic they can do anything for you).

As I said: time to chew your leg off and get free.

Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#229
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of off-topic, but what has your experience with HIIT and sleep been? I am just starting, and being somewhat obsessive about sleep would be interested to hear your experience.

If you're obsessive about sleep, I think you'll be fine :) My mistake was doing 3 20 min sessions of pretty intense HIIT a week and then not getting nearly enough sleep (averaged maybe 6 hrs). I felt chronic fatigue at work - it feels like a heavy wave of exhaustion very different from typical feelings of tiredness. You'll notice your work performance degrade correspondingly. Under normal circumstances you might be a…

Thanks for the reply. I've been easing my way in with just 30sec on, 30 sec off for 5 minutes a day. I did two sets on day, and had to get up early the next day and was wiped out.

Good to hear your experience!

Post reply on HN