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After the coup, Turkey turns against America

economist.com

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Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#221

Post by tremon »

shabaan wrote: post #76
pluma wrote: post #6

Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…

I would like to comment how biased this view is. Yes the president is religious and cares about islam, his religion. - Turkey gdp has increased unparalleled in the whole of europe under Erdogan. - Erdogan has resettled 2.2 million syrian refugees in new cities (much more than whole of europe combined) with monthly food and money .. although 2.3 million are yet to settle. - He was elected with 60% votes and current st…

He is evil

I'm sure that some people say that. So what? Some other politicians that have been called the same: G.W. Bush, Barack Obama, Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, Nigel Farage, Angela Merkel, Francois Hollande.

He is religious

Are you suggesting that he isn't?

He is undemocratic

And there's ample evidence that he is. Democracy requires freedom of the press and free speech. When his government raids newspaper headquarters and installs puppet editors, he very much is undemocratic.

He talks about death penalty

It's not that he talks about it, it's about why and when he talks about it. Namely, to get rid of political rivals.

we would rather support coup dictat sisi in egypt who gave 6000 people death penalty for "protests"

Who is "we" here? Most European governments did as much about that as they do about Erdogan's latest purge: they wagged their finger.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#222

Post by usrusr »

pluma wrote: post #51
emilsedgh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not just Erdogan. People of Turkey seem to be supporters of this path. Although its very sad.

Erdogan always had strong support from Turkish expatriates. I had always heard this explained as fundamentalists leaving Turkey because its secular laws were more restrictive (e.g. headscarfs are banned in universities[0] because of the strong separation of church and state) and Erdogan catering towards those fundamentalists. I don't know what changed in Turkey but it now seems that his support has grown not only out…

> I had always heard this explained as fundamentalists leaving Turkey because its secular laws were more restrictive

Not so much fundamentalists fleeing from secularism, but people emigrating from the poorest backwater parts of the country, where, coincidence or not, both religious traditions and AKP are much stronger than in well-educated urban regions.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#223

Post by tptacek »

ivanca wrote: post #203
tptacek wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, please don't call other comments "nonsense". It degrades the thread and makes your own comment far less persuasive. It's also something the site guidelines tell you not to do. Second, just because a coup is overthrowing an elected government that, having achieved power, is subverting democracy, doesn't mean the coup is itself democratic. A military coup is the opposite of democracy. Democracy has been restored…

> Democracy has been restored in plenty of countries previously ruled by authoritarians without recourse to the military. Would a military coup in China be the opposite of democracy? Then what do they have now? A different opposite of democracy? I think you wanna paint a black and white pic of the subject but that is impossible

Yes! A military coup in China would not be democratic. How complicated is this to understand? A military coup implies government by a military junta.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#224

Post by googletazer »

Turkey is a sovereign country, and its policies should be determined by majority of its people. If, for example it decides to become another Saudi Arabia, so be it - no amount of international meddling is going to help. I'm sure Turks know how they want to live without the whole world whispering into their ears.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#225

Post by matt4077 »

jbmorgado wrote: post #81

Oh nice. The white European blaming is already starting. Let's forget that the majority of Turks elected a half-mad men that bases his discourse in the superiority of Islam and in the ethnical cleansing of Kurdistan. Let's forget that Erdogan supported the Islamic state. Let's forget that the Turks re-elected him after all this. Let's forget all these pro-Erdogan demonstrations going on in the streets of Ankara and I…

With a bit of reading comprehension, you'd notice that I don't disagree – Erdogan is one of the reasons I'm glad there's a "biological term limit" that should hit him in the next 10 years. The people are equally to blame (though it becomes harder when the disappearance of democratic institutions makes ignorance more understandable). Also I guess that Mr. Trump is a good example of what can happen even in the most stable democracies.

But that doesn't negate the fact that the fate of nations can be influenced from the outside. Actions – those in foreign policy – have consequences. Otherwise: why bother?

This also doesn't fit in your narrative of me being critical of some sort of post-colonialistic lack of altruism. I am saying that Europe had a golden opportunity to gain a strong foothold in the middle east and just let it go to waste. It's also another failure in the rising culture war between democracy and authoritarian capitalists (Putin, Erdogan, Trump, China, Hungary). This time around, the enemy isn't quite as stupid as during the cold war...

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#226

Post by emodendroket »

ivanca wrote: post #203
tptacek wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, please don't call other comments "nonsense". It degrades the thread and makes your own comment far less persuasive. It's also something the site guidelines tell you not to do. Second, just because a coup is overthrowing an elected government that, having achieved power, is subverting democracy, doesn't mean the coup is itself democratic. A military coup is the opposite of democracy. Democracy has been restored…

> Democracy has been restored in plenty of countries previously ruled by authoritarians without recourse to the military. Would a military coup in China be the opposite of democracy? Then what do they have now? A different opposite of democracy? I think you wanna paint a black and white pic of the subject but that is impossible

Is it a triumph for "democracy" when one king overthrows another? You're describing a scenario in which neither the current government nor the hypothetical replacement (or means of putting it in power) is democratic. It's only in the past few centuries that the majority of would-be rulers have felt compelled to even make a pretense of respecting democracy, so I don't understand what makes this so mind-bending.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#228

Post by pythia__ »

pjc50 wrote: post #189
pythia__ wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never mind Turkey. Could you name three Western governments that satisfy Popper's criterion?

? Most western governments hand over peacefully after elections.

That is exactly the point. Holding elections, even peaceful, transparent elections, is not the same thing as "replacing the government." Most government employees and non-employees who heavily influence policy are not elected and can't be replaced through elections.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#229

Post by nwah1 »

tremon wrote: post #108
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"and important enough as an ally to NATO and Europe" I have to imagine at some point Europe will have had enough of Erdogan.

Europe will have to tolerate Erdogan until it starts reinvesting in its own military. Especially with the UK out of the picture, mainland Europe has very little military capability.

The UK may be out of the EU, but that hardly means they'll look on collective European security matters with disinterest.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#230

Post by toyg »

fredThrind wrote: post #186
pabloski wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you serious? Democracy is first and foremost the government of the majority. Whoever defines himself as democratic must respect the will of the majority. Sic et simplicitur.

I'm not sure if gp is American, but if he is then I would presume he is, indeed serious. The US Constitution is almost impossible to amend in practice, and a ridiculously small percentage of the American population can block an amendment. Indeed, the late conservative Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia made this point.* This has may have led to a perception from Americans that constitutions ought to be difficult to…

This is not as clear-cut as you present it though, it's very much a live wound in political science. Is there anything "sacred", in a democracy? If 99 out of 100 representatives voted for a new Holocaust, would that be fine and legal to enact?

Most systems route around the problem by requiring "supermajorities", or majorities with different qualifications, to amend the most criticals bits (constitutions and the likes) or even to progress regular legislation in some cases ("filibustering"). But the problem is still there. If representatives of a constitutional democracy voted to transform it into an absolutist hereditary monarchy, following all necessary constitutional rules, would that be legitimate?

What we often take for granted, in constitutional sciences, is a set of rules that is often less than 100 years old, and which was achieved with much bloodshed. We risk re-learning painful lessons.

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