After the coup, Turkey turns against America • Hacker News Board

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#191

Post by loxs » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 2:42 PM UTC

vintermann wrote: post #46

pluma wrote: post #6

Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…

Karl Popper considered a government democratic if it could be replaced without violence, and while that's not exactly my definition, I think it's a good start - a bare minimum. A provision in the constitution for military coups doesn't excuse it. That just means the Turkish constitution is a bad one, that doesn't offer its citizens democracy. Handing over control to the people "once the situation is stable again" is…

This is going to be controversial, but where is the proof that "democracy" is the biggest value to be pursued?

In my opinion democracy is only a tool, not goal. And I think sometimes (Kemalist Turkey is one example) it's better for a society to not implement "pure" democracy in the name of better values like secularism, freedom etc.

UK/Brexit is also a good example of majority of people being stupid and hurting themselves by using democracy.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#192

Post by jdimov10 » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 2:42 PM UTC

jbmorgado wrote: post #122

denzil_correa wrote: post #104

Here are the actions taken by Erdogan lead AKP government after the coup [0]. Day by day, I find it difficult to believe this coup was not staged. 300 Energy Ministry employees dismissed 184 Customs Ministry employees dismissed 8 top-level parliamentary executives removed All Turks require extra documentation to travel outside country 86 Banking Regulation and Supervision Agency (BDDK) employees dismissed 51 Borsa Is…

Why is a totally quantitative comment that is relevant to the discussion being downvoted? Can't see any HN posting rules that this violates. On the contrary I can very well see its major interest to the discussion at hand.

On HN you never know why you're downvoted. 9 times out of 10 it's because some wanker woke up cranky due to lack of sex ;) Don't look for deeper reason.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#193

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 2:44 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #150

ivanca wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop repeating the same nonsense, an elected leader cannot crush his opposition and still be expected to be called a democracy.

First, please don't call other comments "nonsense". It degrades the thread and makes your own comment far less persuasive. It's also something the site guidelines tell you not to do. Second, just because a coup is overthrowing an elected government that, having achieved power, is subverting democracy, doesn't mean the coup is itself democratic. A military coup is the opposite of democracy. Democracy has been restored…

>"Democracy has been restored in plenty of countries previously ruled by authoritarians without recourse to the military." //

World politics isn't my strong suit, could you give a few examples? Thanks.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#194

Post by pjc50 » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 2:46 PM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #53

pluma wrote: post #6

Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…

It will probably go done in history as the EU's worst mistake – far worse than Greece or Brexit – not to have provided Turkey with a realistic path to membership. Around 1995-2005, Turkey was growing economically, a civil society was taking root and the people had an optimistic outlook friendly to the west. Erdogan was a mildly-religious fan of the EU and keen on economic progress in his first years. I'm not saying t…

Turkey still has troops parked in what is technically territory belonging to another EU member state (Cyprus). This had to be sorted out somehow if accession were not to be vetoed, and Turkey was moving very slowly on the issue.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#195

Post by tim333 » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 2:46 PM UTC

grp wrote: post #31

tim333 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's diplomatic speak for Turkey having been the biggest sponsor of ISIS.

Source please!

Some stuff:

ISIS gets funds by shipping oil to Turkey "Russian fighter jets smash ISIS oil tankers after spotting 12,000 at Turkish border" http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/629409/Russian-jets-smas...

Where it's quite likely traded by Erdogan's son http://www.mintpressnews.com/211624-2/211624/

Various on Quora https://www.quora.com/Is-Turkey-supporting-ISIS-If-so-why

ISIS fighter having a Turkish beach hol before getting back to the beheading http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3173135/Jihadi-swimm...

I think Turkey is a similar situation to the US supporting Bin Laden and the Mujahideen in Afghanistan to try to get rid of the Russian proxy except in Syria this time.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#196

Post by knowaveragejoe » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 2:46 PM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #15

guard-of-terra wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because the population generally has quite anti-US sentiments Are you assuming that population spontaneously acquires "anti-US sentiments"? I would attribute it to some kind of propaganda campaign, therefore cause and effect will be switched.

Or just maybe they have seen the outcome of two American wars on Islamic nations and reached their own conclusions?

I imagine that plays a small role if any. Instead, it's a common trope in these countries to blame some external power for their problems - in other words, it's not always the US(though it certainly often is, considering how influential the country is).

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#197

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 2:48 PM UTC

amyjess wrote: post #170

emodendroket wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, you could argue that maybe the military would be better, but a military coup of an elected leader doesn't just "seem" undemocratic; it is undemocratic by any reasonable standard.

"Undemocratic" isn't a bad thing. Democracy is nothing more than two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for dinner.

It's pithy, it highlights the problem of the Tyranny of the Majority, but I feel democracy has more about it than that.

To borrow your analogy: In general there are more sheep than wolves, but the wolves have a habit of twisting things - gerrymandering will give them a fresh kill for every vote.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#198

Post by enimodas » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 2:50 PM UTC

somenomadicguy wrote: post #121

olympus wrote: post #7

For the most part, America had nothing to do with the coup attempt and had no idea that it was about to happen. Honestly, the majority of Americans couldn't find Turkey on a map even if you centered the map on Turkey. However, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if a few CIA types provided assistance like they've been known (or suspected) to do in South America and other parts of the world. The US government clearly be…

As an American in Türkiye, I do not believe that we had anything directly to do with the coup, but I believe we knew about it, and we informed him ahead of time. Until about his recent to the US for Muhamed Ali's funeral, Erdoğan was his usual grumpy-old-grandfather self. He was on television every day spreading conspiracy theories, hatred, and misogyny. Within days of returning, he surpised us all by - Repairing tie…

But wouldn't the USA gain more by letting the coup succeed than by letting it fail?

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#199

Post by tptacek » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 2:51 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #193

tptacek wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, please don't call other comments "nonsense". It degrades the thread and makes your own comment far less persuasive. It's also something the site guidelines tell you not to do. Second, just because a coup is overthrowing an elected government that, having achieved power, is subverting democracy, doesn't mean the coup is itself democratic. A military coup is the opposite of democracy. Democracy has been restored…

>"Democracy has been restored in plenty of countries previously ruled by authoritarians without recourse to the military." // World politics isn't my strong suit, could you give a few examples? Thanks.

India, the Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia, the Philippines, &c.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#200

Post by fredThrind » Wed, Jul 20, 2016, 2:51 PM UTC

jessriedel wrote: post #132

vintermann wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Karl Popper considered a government democratic if it could be replaced without violence, and while that's not exactly my definition, I think it's a good start - a bare minimum. A provision in the constitution for military coups doesn't excuse it. That just means the Turkish constitution is a bad one, that doesn't offer its citizens democracy. Handing over control to the people "once the situation is stable again" is…

No existing democracies are pure democracies, in the sense that the have non-democratic elements, often enshrined in a constitution, that constrain the government. In the US, unelected judges with lifetime appointments strike down laws passed democratically, in accordance with a constitution that none of us alive had any input in writing. We've all gotten used to that idea, but it was extremely controversial when it…

The US is hardly a good comparison: the US constitution is deeply anti-democratic when compared to other liberal democracies, and even when compared to the States of the US because it is almost impossible to amend ( http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/view_from_ch... ). The fact that judges are forced to invent new rights in the U.S. because a bunch of long-dead guys couldn't predict the future is, in itself, a symptom of a flawed system.