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After the coup, Turkey turns against America

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Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#181

Post by grandalf »

jbmorgado wrote: post #161
grandalf wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have evidence that Erdogan is mentally ill? This is a critique commonly made toward political leaders we disagree with. Notably, Saddam was seriously considered mentally ill by many in the US, which helped Americans view him (and his people) as less than human.

Ah, ok, so that is the only part of all I said that you can pinpoint it's not accurate. Very well, I agree that Erdogan being half mad (so mentally ill from your interpretation) is not easily proved. His speeches and the construction of the new palace (and the reasons given for it: https://www.yahoo.com/news/cockroaches-made-want-palace-says... ) indicate that he shouldn't be totally sane. But I agree it's something…

I do not agree with the rest. I do not see how his support of ISIS is necessarily harmful. ISIS is a grassroots movement with a goal of Islamic solidarity.

ISIS is opposed to US intervention in the region because it views such intervention as harming Islamic solidarity. I do not think that (aside from some demand for Erdogan's loyalty to the US) that being supportive of such a movement in the region is necessarily a bad thing.

Of course, the tactics used by ISIS leave a lot to be desired, but so do the tactics used by the US in fighting ISIS, so I am not necessarily prepared to declare ISIS unconditionally morally in the wrong.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#182

Post by pluma »

argonaut wrote: post #160
acjohnson55 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would taking care of the North Korea problem look like? Land invasion? We did that; it ended in a stalemate, and the circumstances of that result haven't really changed. Turkey should be concerned about whether its strategic value still exists as such. We could probably live without them in the post-Soviet world. They are certainly extremely useful to have in the fold, but Erdoğan should take care not to assume…

Errr... The US was fighting China in the Korean War. And the US military was not yet the undisputed global military superpower it is today. A land invasion of North Korea would almost certainly be successful, the casualties and cost is the unacceptable part.

Depends on how you define success. Officially Afghanistan and Iraq were successes, but the messy "post-war" situation in Iraq was a major factor to the strength of ISIS.

Modern warfare really seems to be less about the actual war and more about post-war occupation.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#183

Post by argonaut »

pluma wrote: post #182
argonaut wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Errr... The US was fighting China in the Korean War. And the US military was not yet the undisputed global military superpower it is today. A land invasion of North Korea would almost certainly be successful, the casualties and cost is the unacceptable part.

Depends on how you define success. Officially Afghanistan and Iraq were successes, but the messy "post-war" situation in Iraq was a major factor to the strength of ISIS. Modern warfare really seems to be less about the actual war and more about post-war occupation.

I meant actual success, obviously. North Korea is culturally homogenous, and culturally similar to South Korea. There is no comparison to Afghanistan and Iraq.

It also goes without saying that if America was willing to fully occupy Iraq for a few more decades, I'm completely confident Iraq would be stable - the cost is ridiculously prohibitive, however.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#184

Post by icebraining »

afsina wrote: post #87
virtualritz wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people who went to the streets, against the coup, where Erdogan's supporters. The majority of the populace in Ankara & Istanbul stayed in their houses. I.e. the only people on the streets where those against the coup. We do not know how many of the majority, who didn't take to the streets where for or against its success.

No, people has families and children and for a million other reason they may choose not to go to streets. It is idiotic to think that they are supporting the coup.

It's not idiotic to think that some support the coup, and the parent poster specifically says we simply don't know how many support it or not.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#185

Post by pluma »

olympus wrote: post #7

For the most part, America had nothing to do with the coup attempt and had no idea that it was about to happen. Honestly, the majority of Americans couldn't find Turkey on a map even if you centered the map on Turkey. However, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if a few CIA types provided assistance like they've been known (or suspected) to do in South America and other parts of the world. The US government clearly be…

I'll be the last person to sing praises for the CIA's competence but if the CIA had been involved in the coup I certainly would expect at least Erdogan (if not some of his major officials) to be in a casket right now.

If there was any CIA involvement, they obviously let the interns run the show.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#186

Post by fredThrind »

pabloski wrote: post #152
denzil_correa wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no excuse for human rights abuses, but if the majority of Turks believe they've been chafing under Kemalism for 90 years, and want to try something different, what right do we have to presume to dictate to them? Democracy is not simply the rule of majority. There are certain fundamental aspects of democracy that are sacrilege and can not be broken down even if 99/100 citizens want it.

Are you serious? Democracy is first and foremost the government of the majority. Whoever defines himself as democratic must respect the will of the majority. Sic et simplicitur.

I'm not sure if gp is American, but if he is then I would presume he is, indeed serious. The US Constitution is almost impossible to amend in practice, and a ridiculously small percentage of the American population can block an amendment. Indeed, the late conservative Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia made this point.*

This has may have led to a perception from Americans that constitutions ought to be difficult to amend by their nature, and that is an essential feature of republicanism, since the US Constitution is practically set in stone-hence the immense power of the US Supreme Court justices. In fact, most countries do make it considerably easier to change their constitutions (with a straightforward super-majority, in most cases), and to adapt to the needs of the people. The idea of an unbreakable and sacred tyranny of people who are long dead (The Founders) is something unique to the US, among constitutional democracies.The arguments about things being needing to be set in stone confuse cause and effect.

*http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/view_from_ch...

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#187

Post by tptacek »

ivanca wrote: post #169
tptacek wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can say that a coup is in the long term interest of the people or not, just as you could say that a permanent military junta might better serve the people than the AKP. What the comment you're replying to is correctly pointing out is that what you can't say about a coup is that it's democratic. It's the opposite of democratic.

It may not be democratic, but it certainly not the opposite of democratic. Let's put it this way, let's say 60% of people vote to kill the other 40%. And then a third party enters and stops such madness. You know who is more democratic of them all? The third party, for allowing the existence of more than one party. A coup can be more democratic than any election. It's all about context.

You are confusing "justified" with "democratic".

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#188

Post by zeveb »

denzil_correa wrote: post #120
fredThrind wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been reading this sort of thing a lot recently. Indeed, I think someone admiringly called Turkey's military "the world's best armed constitutional court". Yet, from what I was able to gather, even the Turkish opposition parties objected to the coup, and comments from ordinary Turks (and interestingly Greeks) were that Turkish coups were very bad for them. Many of us presume to have the right to decide the fates…

> There is no excuse for human rights abuses, but if the majority of Turks believe they've been chafing under Kemalism for 90 years, and want to try something different, what right do we have to presume to dictate to them? Democracy is not simply the rule of majority. There are certain fundamental aspects of democracy that are sacrilege and can not be broken down even if 99/100 citizens want it.

> Democracy is not simply the rule of majority.

Yes, it is: it's the rule of the demos — the mob.

> There are certain fundamental aspects of democracy that are sacrilege and can not be broken down even if 99/100 citizens want it.

Those are the fundamental aspects of a republic, not of a democracy.

I blame Woodrow Wilson and all his nonsense about making the world safe for democracy. I don't actually care about whether I live in a democracy or not: I want to live in a republic, where the fundamental liberties of even the smallest minorities are secured from even the great howling mob.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#189

Post by pjc50 »

pythia__ wrote: post #173
vintermann wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Karl Popper considered a government democratic if it could be replaced without violence, and while that's not exactly my definition, I think it's a good start - a bare minimum. A provision in the constitution for military coups doesn't excuse it. That just means the Turkish constitution is a bad one, that doesn't offer its citizens democracy. Handing over control to the people "once the situation is stable again" is…

Never mind Turkey. Could you name three Western governments that satisfy Popper's criterion?

? Most western governments hand over peacefully after elections.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#190

Post by pbhjpbhj »

tptacek wrote: post #148
pluma wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but then it becomes a matter of contrasting the will of the "demos" with the ideals that need to be upheld to ensure the future well-being of the people. There are very few actual democracies in existence today. There is a reason most democratic countries don't put every decision to a public vote and why there are often certain laws no government is allowed to change. You can agree or disagree with the prioriti…

You can say that a coup is in the long term interest of the people or not, just as you could say that a permanent military junta might better serve the people than the AKP. What the comment you're replying to is correctly pointing out is that what you can't say about a coup is that it's democratic. It's the opposite of democratic.

>what you can't say about a coup is that it's democratic //

How so? If there's a dictator in power and the majority of the people want to return to a democratic election and the only way to remove the dictator is with a [violent] coup - how is that not democratic? How can the imposition of a democratic system by the majority will of the demos _not_ be democratic?

[I'm not claiming that the situation in Turkey was supported by the majority or not, just trying to drill down on the general point of what [you consider] is democratic].

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