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After the coup, Turkey turns against America

economist.com

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Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#81

Post by jbmorgado »

Oh nice. The white European blaming is already starting.

Let's forget that the majority of Turks elected a half-mad men that bases his discourse in the superiority of Islam and in the ethnical cleansing of Kurdistan.

Let's forget that Erdogan supported the Islamic state.

Let's forget that the Turks re-elected him after all this.

Let's forget all these pro-Erdogan demonstrations going on in the streets of Ankara and Istambul right now, just as the guy wants to re-implement capital punishment and is sacking judges, deans, policeman and military as he pleases.

Let's forget that Erdogan is bombing the only guys that are opposing the Islamic State in the field right this moment.

No, let's instead do what all the cool kids do and blame the West. Cause you know... in the end, it's always the West that must get to be blamed for all evils of the world.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#83

Post by olympus »

kristiandupont wrote: post #41
olympus wrote: post #7

For the most part, America had nothing to do with the coup attempt and had no idea that it was about to happen. Honestly, the majority of Americans couldn't find Turkey on a map even if you centered the map on Turkey. However, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if a few CIA types provided assistance like they've been known (or suspected) to do in South America and other parts of the world. The US government clearly be…

>America had nothing to do with the coup attempt >a classified document will be leaked that some portion of the US government was involved ..so which is it? Also, how is it relevant whether or not the general American can find Turkey on a map? It's not like diplomacy and foreign intervention is done by the general population.

Note that I lead off with "For the most part." The two statements do not contradict each other. The majority of the population can be uninvolved while a small portion of the government gets involved.

While diplomacy isn't done directly by the population, it should be supported by the general population. In general Americans are against communism, the war against ISIS/terrorism and support many government actions across the world. They supported invading Iraq (with the information that was provided to them). They supported invading Afghanistan and fighting the Taliban and Al Qaeda. I doubt that most Americans would support action against Turkey at the current state of Erdogan's government.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#84

Post by joesmo »

matt4077 wrote: post #53
pluma wrote: post #6

Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…

It will probably go done in history as the EU's worst mistake – far worse than Greece or Brexit – not to have provided Turkey with a realistic path to membership. Around 1995-2005, Turkey was growing economically, a civil society was taking root and the people had an optimistic outlook friendly to the west. Erdogan was a mildly-religious fan of the EU and keen on economic progress in his first years. I'm not saying t…

The other way to look at it is that Europe dodged a huge bullet by not creating said path to the EU for Turkey. It's not like Erdogan would have turned away from being an authoritarian dictator simply because Turkey was in the EU and things like Brexit would now have been a minor worry compared to an unstable state run by a authoritarian dictator that exemplifies everything the EU abhors. It's more than just the ratio of churches to mosques that makes Turkey ineligible for EU membership and Turkey/Erdogan have been proving that for years now.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#85

Post by tonyedgecombe »

eternalban wrote: post #70
pluma wrote: post #6

Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…

> I don't think he staged the failed coup himself Indeed. It is is pretty irrational for a grandee to "fake a coup" if the said grandee is not in 100% control of military-spook set. (And if 100%, it makes no sense, since you already have full control.) > He spread the narrative that the coup was staged not to defend Atatürk's principles but by a religious sect his ruling party fell out with. http://www.militarytimes.…

I think I'd want to see some evidence rather than speculation before I believed that.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#86

Post by vixen99 »

jbmorgado wrote: post #81

Oh nice. The white European blaming is already starting. Let's forget that the majority of Turks elected a half-mad men that bases his discourse in the superiority of Islam and in the ethnical cleansing of Kurdistan. Let's forget that Erdogan supported the Islamic state. Let's forget that the Turks re-elected him after all this. Let's forget all these pro-Erdogan demonstrations going on in the streets of Ankara and I…

As declaimed by Royce Mann

http://www.vox.com/2016/7/16/12184772/white-boy-privilege-ro...

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#87

Post by afsina »

virtualritz wrote: post #78
emilsedgh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not just Erdogan. People of Turkey seem to be supporters of this path. Although its very sad.

The people who went to the streets, against the coup, where Erdogan's supporters. The majority of the populace in Ankara & Istanbul stayed in their houses. I.e. the only people on the streets where those against the coup. We do not know how many of the majority, who didn't take to the streets where for or against its success.

No, people has families and children and for a million other reason they may choose not to go to streets. It is idiotic to think that they are supporting the coup.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#88

Post by shabaan »

jbmorgado wrote: post #81

Oh nice. The white European blaming is already starting. Let's forget that the majority of Turks elected a half-mad men that bases his discourse in the superiority of Islam and in the ethnical cleansing of Kurdistan. Let's forget that Erdogan supported the Islamic state. Let's forget that the Turks re-elected him after all this. Let's forget all these pro-Erdogan demonstrations going on in the streets of Ankara and I…

Nice too..

Let's go into each of the past instances of history and make it excuse to blame TURKEY today

Lets forget how many turkish lives did kurdish terrorist attacks claimed before we claim "ethnic cleansing" for fighting men in uniform

Lets forget Erdogan returned US citizens trying to cross to syria and the airbase from where 95% airstrikes happen

Lets rant on capital punishment for treason-ers but claim to the torch of democracy and support dictators (sisi) giving dealth penalty to protectors

Lets try to say.. I am the different one. Because I have a better conspiracy theory than you

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#89

Post by pluma »

cdash wrote: post #40
emilsedgh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not just Erdogan. People of Turkey seem to be supporters of this path. Although its very sad.

The people have always been supporters of this path. That is why the reset button had to keep on being pushed by the military.

This isn't entirely wrong. Turkey started out as the remnants of the Ottoman Empire, an Islamic caliphate. Atatürk created a secular republic inspired by modern Western nations and culture. He even went so far as to change the writing system.

It's fairly safe to say that Atatürk's ideals have always been in strong conflict with the will of a certain part of the demographic (e.g. fundamentalists) as well as people from many of the neighboring countries.

Consider the controversies in France and other European countries surrounding (proposed) bans on headscarfs and burkas -- then consider that headscarfs have been banned in Turkish universities for decades (though this ban was not always extended to students).

It's entirely possible to democratically elect a government that reaches majority support while harming the entire nation and the well-being of future generations. This is why certain laws are treated as immutable in most republics -- no matter how much the people want to change it.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#90

Post by danielweber »

eternalban wrote: post #70
pluma wrote: post #6

Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…

> I don't think he staged the failed coup himself Indeed. It is is pretty irrational for a grandee to "fake a coup" if the said grandee is not in 100% control of military-spook set. (And if 100%, it makes no sense, since you already have full control.) > He spread the narrative that the coup was staged not to defend Atatürk's principles but by a religious sect his ruling party fell out with. http://www.militarytimes.…

> http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2016/07/19/incir....

> You know, you can try and spin this n times till eternity, but it is pretty clear that either US or NATO tried to remove the legal government of a NATO member.

The fact that the US military base is without external power is hardly proof, much less "pretty clear" that the US or NATO was involved.

If I were in charge and there were a coup by the military, turning on power to military bases, especially foreign ones, would be way down my list of concerns.

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