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After the coup, Turkey turns against America

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Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#71

Post by sbov »

olympus wrote: post #42
breitling wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For the most part, America had nothing to do with the coup attempt We can't know that for sure. I wouldn't underestimate our intelligence. Even if they didn't participate, it's likely they were informed. It is rumored that even the Saudis knew of the coup

What I meant was, out of a country of 300 million people, basically 0% had anything to do with it. Pretty much every company that has any business or trade that goes through Turkey had nothing to do with it. The number of people that want to be friendly vastly outnumber the others. If there was American involvement, I'd bet that the people that knew about it only number in the dozens. It seems a shame that the action…

Well, sure, I mean you can say the same thing about almost anything a country holds against another country. But this isn't what people mean when they use these terms.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#72

Post by pluma »

vintermann wrote: post #46
pluma wrote: post #6

Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…

Karl Popper considered a government democratic if it could be replaced without violence, and while that's not exactly my definition, I think it's a good start - a bare minimum. A provision in the constitution for military coups doesn't excuse it. That just means the Turkish constitution is a bad one, that doesn't offer its citizens democracy. Handing over control to the people "once the situation is stable again" is…

Keep in mind those military coups have generally been relatively peaceful. Erdogan called the coup leaders a "junta" but that evokes the wrong images. The military is sworn to uphold the ideals of the Republic. The police is sworn to serve the government. The military has always tried to keep civilians out of the conflicts.

As a German and knowing my country's history I think a violent escape hatch is always necessary and justified. Both Germany and the US have something quite similar except they don't have a designated protector but instead put that duty on their citizens -- which means the citizens would have to fight against professional soldiers, which is exactly what a military coup would avoid.

You cite Popper, I cite Clausewitz: violence should be avoided, but if all else fails it should be regarded as the continuation of politics with other means. The important distinction is that it must be temporary and it must be avoided if at all possible.

The coups wouldn't be necessary if it weren't for autocrats like Erdogan who try to corrupt the ideals they were supposed to uphold. Turkish military coups are the equivalent of law enforcement using lethal force: it should never happen, but when it becomes absolutely necessary it will save more lives than it costs.

I'd even go so far as to say that if post-WW1 Germany had been modelled like Turkey, the nazis could have never risen to power. Unless the government, like Erdogan did, corrupted the military by replacing its leadership with its conspirators.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#73

Post by scholia »

matt4077 wrote: post #53
pluma wrote: post #6

Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…

It will probably go done in history as the EU's worst mistake – far worse than Greece or Brexit – not to have provided Turkey with a realistic path to membership. Around 1995-2005, Turkey was growing economically, a civil society was taking root and the people had an optimistic outlook friendly to the west. Erdogan was a mildly-religious fan of the EU and keen on economic progress in his first years. I'm not saying t…

To have a chance of joining the EU, Turkey had to implement EU rules, and prepare for the free movement of people. It was nowhere near doing that.

The following is quoted from https://fullfact.org/europe/turkey-likely-join-eu/

Turkey first applied to join what was then the EEC in 1987. It was declared an eligible candidate in 1997. Negotiations were formally opened in 2005.

Now, in 2016, negotiations have closed on just one out of 35 chapters—‘science and research’, which was completed in 2006, the year after it was opened.

Of the remaining 34 chapters, 14 have been opened for negotiation.

In 2006, the EU decided that until Turkey agrees to remove obstacles to free movement of goods (including transport restrictions) between it and Cyprus, no more chapters will be provisionally closed. Eight chapters (including areas fundamental to EU law, such as free movement of goods and right of establishment and freedom to provide services) will not even be opened.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#74

Post by woodpanel »

Honestly, I wonder whats been taking so long for US leadership to understand that Erdogan has never been fond of Turkey being part "the west".

According to Erdogan, "crimes against humanity" are things like "Zionism" (or Israel) or "Turkish emmigrants integrating into [German] society" while the Sudanese president (acutally convicted for crimes against humanity) is not, because he's a muslim. Also the Armenian Genocide isn't one, nor the one against the Kurds. The EU is a "christian club" which is why "Turkey should stay out of it".

The two predecessors of his Party AKP were both outlawed and deemed unconstitutional because of such traits like sympathizing with jihadism. Quite an impressive CV for an "ally".

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#75

Post by drjesusphd »

caf wrote: post #48
karpodiem wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are well on their well to caliphate that will be a hotbed for anti-western sentiment/anti-secular sentiment, so I fail to see how they are a strategic partner.

As long as they control the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus Strait their strategic position remains very valuable.

This feels like Old World thinking.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#76

Post by shabaan »

pluma wrote: post #6

Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…

I would like to comment how biased this view is. Yes the president is religious and cares about islam, his religion.

- Turkey gdp has increased unparalleled in the whole of europe under Erdogan. - Erdogan has resettled 2.2 million syrian refugees in new cities (much more than whole of europe combined) with monthly food and money .. although 2.3 million are yet to settle. - He was elected with 60% votes and current stats (before coupe) say he enjoys support of 70% of people.

This is sufficient for him deserving to be the democratically elected president of Turkey, even if with some wrongs (from turkish people perspective) here and there.

But for some people in west and unilaterally in your media: - He is evil - He is religious - He is undemocratic - He talks about death penalty (although quitely we would rather support coup dictat sisi in egypt who gave 6000 people death penalty for "protests") - He has degraded morals (even though we in west have shown our real colors with regards to the refugee sit

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#77

Post by kiiski »

karpodiem wrote: post #32
smegel wrote: post #22

Turkey is a very dangerous country. It has a large and powerful military, it could probably take over half the middle East if it wanted, and big parts of Eastern Europe. It would also like to take a bite out of Russia if Putin didn't have thousands of nukes. Let's hope they sway back to a secular, moderate nation.

'It would also like to take a bite out of Russia if Putin didn't have thousands of nukes. Let's hope they sway back to a secular, moderate nation.' Yeah, no. Russian weapon systems are far more advanced than the stuff Turkey has, and they outnumber Turkey. Their best equipment is some F-16 stuff that would be vastly overwhelmed by the number of MiG-29/31BM's that Russia has.

Also worth noting that that huge army they have consists of conscripts (6-12 months of service), led by officers that are now selected by religion+loyalty to Erdogan rather than skill. Not exactly the kind of army you want to conquer the world with.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#78

Post by virtualritz »

emilsedgh wrote: post #33
pluma wrote: post #6

Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…

Its not just Erdogan. People of Turkey seem to be supporters of this path. Although its very sad.

The people who went to the streets, against the coup, where Erdogan's supporters. The majority of the populace in Ankara & Istanbul stayed in their houses.

I.e. the only people on the streets where those against the coup. We do not know how many of the majority, who didn't take to the streets where for or against its success.

Re: After the coup, Turkey turns against America

#80

Post by shabaan »

emilsedgh wrote: post #33
pluma wrote: post #6

Although from an outside perspective a military coup seems completely undemocratic the Turkish military has historically had the role of maintaining the principles Atatürk founded the Turkish Republic on. You can think of them as a built-in correction mechanism in case the government veers too far off course -- they remove the government, reset everything to start and then hand over control back to the people once th…

Its not just Erdogan. People of Turkey seem to be supporters of this path. Although its very sad.

Why would they (70%) not support him? - He increased their gdp - He reflects their view - He is merciful to the refugees (settled 2.2 million refugees)

Why does he have to be pleasing to you?

Why do you support hillary.. she killed millions.. Why do you support obama... yest 320 and today 124 (in idp school in syria) dead becasue of him

Why do you support any damn politican in the west? All their pockets and morals are stained.

They compare no where close to Erdogan. But your media has him hating with all kind of funny things.

Anyways, You should be ashamed about the ban of headscarfs .. while claiming the "freedom"-superiority.

Instead you are giving it an example for the "democracy". Guess we should re-define democracy as "bigotcracy"

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