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Scientists pave the way for large-scale storage at the atomic level

economist.com

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Re: Scientists pave the way for large-scale storage at the atomic level

#11

Post by Vraxx »

stephanheijl wrote: post #7

While this is very intesting, the storage mentioned does seem somewhat small to me. The article compares the area covered by the text to be a little smaller than a HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus). However, the genome of HIV apparently stores approximately 9.2kb (kilo basepairs, not kilobytes, so ~18KiB) of information. It also doesn't need to be kept at -196C. Are there any viable tactics for atom-based storage th…

I am not entirely sure how the calculations are done in order to determine the information contained in the genome of HIV, but my suspicion is that the reason this is more dense is due to the genome containing more than binary bits. I'm guessing that in the genome, for every atom that could be at a certain location in the genome, that would represent a different information state. So each location corresponds to more than a binary possibility (atom A, atom B, atom C, etc.). I think this is not the current goal as our purposes with memory storage have more constraints that merely density, what might increase density significantly could potentially decrease read/write speeds or maybe even energy required to perform read/write operations.

All of this is speculation and difficult for me to say for certain since I am not intimately knowledgeable on the topic, but that is my general guess.

Re: Scientists pave the way for large-scale storage at the atomic level

#12

Post by y04nn »

stephanheijl wrote: post #7

While this is very intesting, the storage mentioned does seem somewhat small to me. The article compares the area covered by the text to be a little smaller than a HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus). However, the genome of HIV apparently stores approximately 9.2kb (kilo basepairs, not kilobytes, so ~18KiB) of information. It also doesn't need to be kept at -196C. Are there any viable tactics for atom-based storage th…

DNA digital data storage

Re: Scientists pave the way for large-scale storage at the atomic level

#13

Post by dekhn »

dexwiz wrote: post #10
stephanheijl wrote: post #7

While this is very intesting, the storage mentioned does seem somewhat small to me. The article compares the area covered by the text to be a little smaller than a HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus). However, the genome of HIV apparently stores approximately 9.2kb (kilo basepairs, not kilobytes, so ~18KiB) of information. It also doesn't need to be kept at -196C. Are there any viable tactics for atom-based storage th…

Genetic storage is way more resistant to bit rot than conventional computers. DNA is not stable, has a full time support system fixing it, and still has a relatively high mutation rate. But biological systems on the whole are much more resistant to individual errors. Yes, single mutations can cause horrible diseases, but these mutations are either in the active site of proteins, or disrupt folding. A large portion of…

DNA kept cool and dry is stable for millenia. Any storage done with DNA would likely be done in a fixed environment outside of the cell.

Re: Scientists pave the way for large-scale storage at the atomic level

#14

Post by dekhn »

stephanheijl wrote: post #7

While this is very intesting, the storage mentioned does seem somewhat small to me. The article compares the area covered by the text to be a little smaller than a HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus). However, the genome of HIV apparently stores approximately 9.2kb (kilo basepairs, not kilobytes, so ~18KiB) of information. It also doesn't need to be kept at -196C. Are there any viable tactics for atom-based storage th…

The storage in the article is 2D surface. DNA storage in viruses is highly compacted in 3D. Single atom storage is limited by the interatomic distance and the accessibility of the atoms (you could use a series of 2D surfaces stacked on each other to increase density). DNA storage is roughly 30 atoms/base or bit. So, probably the single atom method could ultimately be scaled further.

Re: Scientists pave the way for large-scale storage at the atomic level

#15

Post by coldcode »

dexwiz wrote: post #8

From -269ºC to -196ºC is actually a huge improvement. Its the difference between liquid helium (expensive) to liquid nitrogen (cheap). Getting something that cold is hard, but keeping it there is just a matter of insulation. There seems to be a different kind of physics when you get that cold. Stable single atom structures, superconducting magnets, etc. It's all based around the idea that nanometer structures are now…

The problem I see is what happens if the temperature doesn't stay in the required range for whatever reason like power failures, earthquakes, sloppy maintenance - you lose the data. Having such an enormous storage that is so fragile seems to have limited usefulness. If they ever get it to room temperature and have it be stabile then it might be more interesting.

Re: Scientists pave the way for large-scale storage at the atomic level

#16

Post by [deleted] »

stephanheijl wrote: post #7

While this is very intesting, the storage mentioned does seem somewhat small to me. The article compares the area covered by the text to be a little smaller than a HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus). However, the genome of HIV apparently stores approximately 9.2kb (kilo basepairs, not kilobytes, so ~18KiB) of information. It also doesn't need to be kept at -196C. Are there any viable tactics for atom-based storage th…

[deleted]

Re: Scientists pave the way for large-scale storage at the atomic level

#17

Post by stephengillie »

coldcode wrote: post #15
dexwiz wrote: post #8

From -269ºC to -196ºC is actually a huge improvement. Its the difference between liquid helium (expensive) to liquid nitrogen (cheap). Getting something that cold is hard, but keeping it there is just a matter of insulation. There seems to be a different kind of physics when you get that cold. Stable single atom structures, superconducting magnets, etc. It's all based around the idea that nanometer structures are now…

The problem I see is what happens if the temperature doesn't stay in the required range for whatever reason like power failures, earthquakes, sloppy maintenance - you lose the data. Having such an enormous storage that is so fragile seems to have limited usefulness. If they ever get it to room temperature and have it be stabile then it might be more interesting.

We already have a demand for very large, very-high-speed storage with in-memory databases. We already fill this need with highly-volatile RAM, and back it with more-persistent magnetic storage.

From the article, this is seen as a replacement for persistent storage, for which it will need a lot more stability and temperature work.

Re: Scientists pave the way for large-scale storage at the atomic level

#18

Post by delibes »

dekhn wrote: post #14
stephanheijl wrote: post #7

While this is very intesting, the storage mentioned does seem somewhat small to me. The article compares the area covered by the text to be a little smaller than a HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus). However, the genome of HIV apparently stores approximately 9.2kb (kilo basepairs, not kilobytes, so ~18KiB) of information. It also doesn't need to be kept at -196C. Are there any viable tactics for atom-based storage th…

The storage in the article is 2D surface. DNA storage in viruses is highly compacted in 3D. Single atom storage is limited by the interatomic distance and the accessibility of the atoms (you could use a series of 2D surfaces stacked on each other to increase density). DNA storage is roughly 30 atoms/base or bit. So, probably the single atom method could ultimately be scaled further.

Well OK it spirals around, but isn't RNA/DNA really just linear? To access, you need an enzyme to walk it forwards or backwards and there are no other options that I know of. (I'm not a biologist)

Re: Scientists pave the way for large-scale storage at the atomic level

#19

Post by mjhirn »

I am wondering if the technique described in this Nature publication from yesterday [1] to potentially operate quantum computers at room temperature, could be used for the atomic storage as well. Does anyone know?

[1]: http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160718/ncomms12232/full/nc...

Re: Scientists pave the way for large-scale storage at the atomic level

#20

Post by Sharlin »

coldcode wrote: post #15
dexwiz wrote: post #8

From -269ºC to -196ºC is actually a huge improvement. Its the difference between liquid helium (expensive) to liquid nitrogen (cheap). Getting something that cold is hard, but keeping it there is just a matter of insulation. There seems to be a different kind of physics when you get that cold. Stable single atom structures, superconducting magnets, etc. It's all based around the idea that nanometer structures are now…

The problem I see is what happens if the temperature doesn't stay in the required range for whatever reason like power failures, earthquakes, sloppy maintenance - you lose the data. Having such an enormous storage that is so fragile seems to have limited usefulness. If they ever get it to room temperature and have it be stabile then it might be more interesting.

There is an existing engineering discipline centered around keeping a lot of precious fragile data at liquid nitrogen temperatures for decades without malfunction. Say what you want about cryonics but the storage part is proven technology.
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