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Is full-time work bad for our brains?

bbc.com

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Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#191
post #172

This is a paper on the work that the article cited: https://www.melbourneinstitute.com/downloads/working_paper_s... There is a critical mathematical mistake with their use of statistical analysis which basically, as an artifact, bakes in this "conclusion" into the "results". It comes about because they manually add "Working hours-squared/100" into the factor analysis, and then, low and behold, there is a parabola cor…

I skimmed the paper and couldn't find this "critical mistake". The nonlinear model you describe is common and appropriate to situations like this. y ~ x + x^2 A mistake would be y ~ y^2 And even then, it would be appropriate if we're modeling an autoregressive process. y_{t} ~ y_{t-1}

I'll try to state in this language what I think is the conceptual flaw.

The stated conclusion is "there is an optimum number of work hours, and it is less than 40."

However, their method of analysis is this:

"We fit a non-linear model that is a quadratic model cognitive ability y ~ ax + b x^2 for x work hours / week, and we found a statistical optimum around 25 hours"

The problem with this is that you're trying to find the best fit of a parabola to the data. And you have tons of samples where the work hours are very few / none (unemployed). Because there is a fairly strong correlation with unemployment and cognitive indicators, the parabola is already being "forced down" near hours worked = 0.

Now in this parabola model of estimated cognitive indicators vs work hours, either you are going to get a minima -- and it goes to infinity at working hours -> infinity (of course in real life it cannot really do this, because we only have so many hours in the week, but the statistical model will suggest it) -- or, you are going to get a maxima, which is what actually happens.

It could well be in the data that the indicators are that there is roughly flat, or even increasing response of cognitive indicators to working hours when the number of working hours is beyond a nominal value, but that the unemployed population has somewhat lower indicators.

In this case the model will automatically become a downward curving, parabola with a maxima, suggesting decline with increasing work hours -- even though this is not what the data directly suggests.

This maxima, the fact that there even is a "work hour optimum" that is a smooth, quadratic curve, is a mirage -- the model is not the data.

A remaining question is why the optimum is less than 40 hours. It is relatively easy to construct a statistical case in which it is a curve fitting artifact, despite that there is no direct data even at at the suggested optimum.

One could in principle check to see if this is the case. The data may be available.

For now, there's few graphs on page 20. It really doesn't seem to me that there is a significant distinction between the part time and full time groups -- in fact, the biggest difference is that more women who have a high reading score are not unemployed. Men who have a higher symbols score are more likely to be full-time employed instead of part-time, slightly -- but the converse is true for men with higher reading scores. The difference is not very distinct.

https://www.melbourneinstitute.com/downloads/working_paper_s...

Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I am 100% for the conclusion that we should not as a default case have people working too much! Even a 40 hour work week, for work that is statistically usual today, is in my opinion inhumane. That philosophical belief however does not win out in the context of this particular analysis. My agenda is to support sensible discourse on the question of how our brains adapt and how we live, using rigorous thought. Ma…

"The functions are going to be a parabola." What functions? A plot of which two variables? I have no idea what you're talking about and I'm a grad student in biostats.

I'm sorry, I am trying to explain something that is very clear in my head, and I'm pretty sure that I'm right, but I haven't had bio-stats training specifically so I do not know the language precisely. My background is in physics, computer science, and epistemology.

The functions I am referring to are estimators of cognitive indicators (like backwards digit span, say, that they use in the paper), as a function of working hours.

Take a look at page 21 for some plots. For each of the cognitive indicators, the estimator is a downwards parabola as a function of working hours. What I am saying is that this is an artifact of the analysis. The shape could be far different -- in fact it could be a bad case of curve fitting. Additionally -- why not just directly plot the data as a scatter plot or a binned average of cognitive indicators for bins between, say, 20 - 25 hours, 25 - 30 hours, etc? Then at least we could see if the parabolas are close to the data...

https://www.melbourneinstitute.com/downloads/working_paper_s...

Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#193
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I am 100% for the conclusion that we should not as a default case have people working too much! Even a 40 hour work week, for work that is statistically usual today, is in my opinion inhumane. That philosophical belief however does not win out in the context of this particular analysis. My agenda is to support sensible discourse on the question of how our brains adapt and how we live, using rigorous thought. Ma…

The coefficient for the squared component could easily be zero. This is called "not statistically significant". There is no guarantee for a parabolic shape.

The measure of possible data sets where, by standard statistical analysis, the coefficient for the squared component is zero, is tiny. There's no guarantee for a parabola, just a very high degree of certainty.

Your other point, that the parabola could be "not statistically significant," is true.

But given a strong degree of significant correlation between unemployment and the cognitive indicators, even if the dependence is totally flat for the cognitive indicators between 5 hours worked and 100 hours worked, you will still get a parabola by this method of statistical analysis.

Do not forget, this is model fitting.

Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The functions are going to be a parabola." What functions? A plot of which two variables? I have no idea what you're talking about and I'm a grad student in biostats.

I'm sorry, I am trying to explain something that is very clear in my head, and I'm pretty sure that I'm right, but I haven't had bio-stats training specifically so I do not know the language precisely. My background is in physics, computer science, and epistemology. The functions I am referring to are estimators of cognitive indicators (like backwards digit span, say, that they use in the paper), as a function of wor…

There's nothing wrong with the inclusion of a quadratic term in a linear model if the variable is significant, which is clearly is according to Table IV.

You can't just plot a single predictor against the sample outcome and expect the plot to be particularly revealing in multiple regression. Plus, this isn't even multiple regression; this is a two-stage least squares multiple regression. The working hour (WH) variables are instruments, not predictors. See page 6.

Instrumental variables exist specifically to deal with the case of a possible bidirectional causal association between predictor and response.

Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I find the most effective means to not fall asleep after lunch is to just not eat lunch. When and if I do, I'm intolerably tired for the afternoon. It's your body's natural response to having been fed - conserve energy until the next hunt.

> "It's your body's natural response to having been fed - conserve energy until the next hunt." I think it's more likely to be due to the energy it takes to break down food (meaning you have less free energy) that causes people to feel sluggish after a large meal.

It might be dependent on what was eaten. Of you eat a carb-heavy meal, and you are very insulin-responsive, then you can feel tired afterwards.

Try skipping carbs at lunch, stick with protein+fat, see if that makes a difference.

Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#196
post #77

It would be interesting to see a study controlling for the "sandwich years". My suspicion is that the sandwich years on top of 40+ hour/week employment causes a lot of cognitive degradation. But, 40+ hour/week employment without the sandwich years would see significantly less, if any, degradation.

What are sandwich years?

Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#197
post #77

It would be interesting to see a study controlling for the "sandwich years". My suspicion is that the sandwich years on top of 40+ hour/week employment causes a lot of cognitive degradation. But, 40+ hour/week employment without the sandwich years would see significantly less, if any, degradation.

What are sandwich years?

Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, I don't. I tried many different diets, but they either didn't work, or weren't sustainable. I settled on two rules, lost 50+ lbs, and have been able to sustain it for a few years now. My rules are (1) don't overeat, and (2) don't eat processed foods. It took a few months before I figured out what my portions were, since I don't feel full until about 15-20 minutes after I am. By the time I knew how much…

How did you figure out your personal portion sizes? Just approximation (ex: felt too full after 3 eggs, but just right after 2)? I read plenty of literature on estimating the dietary recommended portion sizes in food, but nothing on how much food I personally should eat in a sitting.

Funny you should use eggs as an example. I do feel too full after 3 eggs, but just right after 2. Unless I'm eating just eggs, in which case 3 is just right. Or unless I'm making an omelette, which is almost impossible with just two eggs. In that case, my dog gets a good part of one of those eggs.

As I say, it did take a few months. I also needed to eat a little slower - I was a fast eater of big meals. Mostly just experimentation and willpower - you have to get used to waiting to feel full. I go by the two fist rule: your stomach's about as big as your two fists put together.

My family also likes to go out to eat a lot. I ask for a box as soon as the food comes, and put half of the food in it. I used to finish the other half, but now I'll usually end up adding a bit to the to-go, and making two meals out of that later. If I'm by myself, I usually just order an appetizer (I do find myself eating more of just one type of dish per meal). If I go with my family, I'm ordering a meal, because, hey, free food!

Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, I am trying to explain something that is very clear in my head, and I'm pretty sure that I'm right, but I haven't had bio-stats training specifically so I do not know the language precisely. My background is in physics, computer science, and epistemology. The functions I am referring to are estimators of cognitive indicators (like backwards digit span, say, that they use in the paper), as a function of wor…

There's nothing wrong with the inclusion of a quadratic term in a linear model if the variable is significant, which is clearly is according to Table IV. You can't just plot a single predictor against the sample outcome and expect the plot to be particularly revealing in multiple regression. Plus, this isn't even multiple regression; this is a two-stage least squares multiple regression. The working hour (WH) variabl…

I'm afraid I don't think you are understanding my point, but apparently it is a difficult one to make.

I'm unfortunately too busy to make it clearer, so I will just leave you with a koan.

Why not include a third order term in the regression? What about an n-th order term? What assumptions do we "bake into" the results of a statistical regression as an effect of including, or not, any function on the original data?

The statistical significance of the quadratic term is actually dependent upon the presence of any more complex or higher order terms in the regression, just as the coefficients and the statistics of the linear term will depend on the presence of the second order term in the analysis.

I'm not saying you should never include a quadratic term in a regression, I'm saying we should understand what the regression is doing when it is fitting a model.

Re: Is full-time work bad for our brains?

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, I am trying to explain something that is very clear in my head, and I'm pretty sure that I'm right, but I haven't had bio-stats training specifically so I do not know the language precisely. My background is in physics, computer science, and epistemology. The functions I am referring to are estimators of cognitive indicators (like backwards digit span, say, that they use in the paper), as a function of wor…

There's nothing wrong with the inclusion of a quadratic term in a linear model if the variable is significant, which is clearly is according to Table IV. You can't just plot a single predictor against the sample outcome and expect the plot to be particularly revealing in multiple regression. Plus, this isn't even multiple regression; this is a two-stage least squares multiple regression. The working hour (WH) variabl…

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