My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land • Hacker News Board

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#201

Post by Frondo » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 6:59 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #106

pastProlog wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> solutions all point to markets It's amazing how this merry-go-round of meaningless and misleading language gets echoed in an echo chamber unquestioned. The USSR had markets just like the US did. You go to the store, you see radishes and milk, you buy radishes with your rubles at this market, you go to another store, you buy the blue shirt instead of the tan one with your rubles. The markets are the same. What do I…

Once again, debates over definitions completely derail any sensible discussion of socialism. The word "markets" as used by people criticizing command economies for not having them does not simply mean "places where radishes are kept with numbers attached to them". It is perfectly reasonable to use the term "market" that way. After all, what else would you call a place where radishes are stored with price tags? But th…

You know, debates over definitions give people who have nothing of substance to contribute a chance to be "right" about a subject. I wish we'd see less of them here; in this comments section, we could probably trim out 90% of the back-and-forth chatter.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#202

Post by pastProlog » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 6:59 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #110

mortenjorck wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, this is the difference between socialism in a free market and socialism in a command economy. While the former may try to influence the market (through social programs, state investment, money supply), it still must bend with the winds of market forces. The latter is an imposition of structure irrespective of the market: It might be seen more as a rigid body that can stand in certain conditions but begins to…

There's no such thing as Socialism in a free market, that's a contradiction in terms. Socialism means non-free market, and uses extreme violence to accomplish its ends of nationalizing wealth and production (which are inherently linked). And indeed, very liberal applications of force is the sole means to accomplish such a thing, which is why all attempts at Socialism throughout history always involved the equivalent…

10000 years ago the entire world was not socialist but communist, and none of what you mentioned happened.

It was the formation of class societies of workers and parasites 10000 years ago which led to violence, suppression of the population etc.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#203

Post by alkonaut » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 7:05 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #117

alvarosm wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Some of us would contend that the basic tenets of socialism cause a society to degenerate in the same way. Communism brings it on brutally, all of a sudden. Besides, Venezuela considers itself socialist. "21st century socialism", they proudly named it.

The People's Democratic Republic of North Korea considers itself 'democratic' - it's even in the name!

As did east Germany. I can't think of a single country with "Democratic" in the name that was actually democratic?

It's like buying a product that says "high quality" something on it.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#204

Post by mzs » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 7:18 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #41

ColinCochrane wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the captions says: Store shelves that are well-stocked, like those in this bakery near Zerpa’s house, are typically full of non-essential items set at sky-high prices

Yes that is the caption but the picture shows a store with ample bread products, cereals, meat selections, canned vegetables, oils and other cooking supplies. When the discussion of the article is a "hunt for food" those things all seem like stuff you'd consider "prey". My question is whether or not that store is accessible to everyone (as described by my father, in the USSR the 'diplomatic' stores were not open to r…

In Poland you could exchange hard currency like US Dollars and German Marks for PeKaO bony (like coupons from national bank) and then use those in stores like Pewex to buy everything. Later it was streamlined like all at one window in the same store or even at check-out. I suspect that is what your father meant by diplomatic stores. The gov wanted hard currency so that it could import from outside the iron curtain, regular folk had no means outside of black market and family and friends living in the west to gain hard currency, so the stores were for tourists, foreign scholars, and diplomats essentially.

Another interesting situation in Poland was fuel rationing. Many things were rationed, but if you were a foreigner entering the the country in the mid '80s you could by coupons for X liters of gasoline. Then you did not even have to wait in the long lines at fuel stations. It was not unheard of people buying stolen fuel under a bridge or in a forest.

Most stores were bare because when inventory came-in it was quickly purchased. Since the prices were controlled people had enough zloty but not enough to spend it on so buying items like paper was desirable because later you could barter it for items you needed on the black market.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#205

Post by madaxe_again » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 7:18 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #17

seibelj wrote: post #4

I highly recommend reading Life and Death in Shanghai by Nien Cheng [0]. It's a factual, first-hand account of the China's Cultural Revolution and what living in a communist / socialist society is really like from an educated person's perspective. My inlaws escaped Saigon when it fell and say the picture is very accurate. The socialist downfall of countries are all unique, but follow similar paths. I encourage people…

I think we need to be more careful with our terminology than using the terms "communist" and "socialist" interchangeably. Presumably, the real problem we're talking about is state-controlled economies, regardless of the ideologies that set them up.

Or rather, we need to be more careful in conflating the axises of political thought - communism does not necessarily require totalitarianism, but, like extreme conservatism, begets it.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#206

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 7:23 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #187

tptacek wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to be more careful with our terminology than using the terms "communist" and "socialist" interchangeably. Presumably, the real problem we're talking about is state-controlled economies, regardless of the ideologies that set them up.

> I think we need to be more careful with our terminology than using the terms "communist" and "socialist" interchangeably. I was born in the Socialist Republic of Romania ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Republic_of_Romania ) in the early 1980s, which was ruled by the Romanian Communist Party (which was the only allowed party). The situation was pretty much the same in all the former Eastern Block countries…

> The situation was pretty much the same in all the former Eastern Block countries, with socialism being used interchangeably with communism

Well, yeah, authoritarian (Leninist-Stalinist) Communist regimes weren't particularly eager to highlight that Leninist vanguardism was a sharp repudiation of central elements of Marxist Communism (and one that, after making some early marks, was singularly unsuccessful in establishing itself any place where capitalism and the elements Marx saw as necessary for moving on to socialism had ever existed, as opposed to other strands of socialism, both Marxist-derived and otherwise), and that Marxist Communism itself was one of many strands of socialist theory, and that all of the advanced "capitalist" economies of the West had -- largely as a result of non-Marxist, or at least non-Leninist, socialist forces -- long since departed from the "capitalism" critiqued by Marx for what the modern mixed economy, which is neither strictly capitalist nor socialist by 19th or early 20th century standards, keeping superficially the property structure of the former, with many structures inspired by the latter.

> I think "communism is different than socialism" is a Western-countries' thing

Well, yes, seeing socialism as broader than Communism is probably more common in places where the successful forms of socialism absolutely weren't Leninist Communism, often weren't other derivations of Marxist Communism -- and, in some cases, characterized Leninist Communist as "state capitalism" -- and had to deal with domestic opponents that wanted to paint them with the brush of Leninism-Stalinism and its atrocities than in one-party Leninist-Stalinist states.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#207

Post by throwanem » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 7:26 PM UTC

astrodust wrote: post #182

knowaveragejoe wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really not see the difference between these two events?

I'm trying to draw parallels here, that sometimes shit happens. Russia's mismanagement of agriculture notwithstanding, sometimes you're up against forces you can't control.

There's a hell of a big difference between an inadvertent result of ill-considered agricultural practices and a deliberate campaign of genocide by starvation.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#208

Post by elcct » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 7:33 PM UTC

huherto wrote: post #147

elcct wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socialists don't understand economy so there you go

You can't generalize. Certainly Hugo Chavez didn't. Since Venezuela was a democracy you could also argue that democracies wreak havoc in the economy.

I am not generalising. But whilst you are at it pin water to it as socialists drink water as well.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#209

Post by tptacek » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 7:34 PM UTC

TillE wrote: post #64

seibelj wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I say socialism and communism, I mean that the government regulates the economy or large pieces of it. Successful "socialist" western democracies are free-market economies that have higher taxes to provide a social safety net. I wish we could call that "empathetic capitalism".

> I wish we could call that "empathetic capitalism". OK, but the universally accepted term is democratic socialism, which is quite accurate. "Capitalism" implies a lot more than just free markets.

Does it? What else does it imply that isn't a straightforward consequence of free markets?

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#210

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 7:38 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #54

tptacek wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to be more careful with our terminology than using the terms "communist" and "socialist" interchangeably. Presumably, the real problem we're talking about is state-controlled economies, regardless of the ideologies that set them up.

When I say socialism and communism, I mean that the government regulates the economy or large pieces of it. Successful "socialist" western democracies are free-market economies that have higher taxes to provide a social safety net. I wish we could call that "empathetic capitalism".

> Successful "socialist" western democracies are free-market economies

Only in the sense that "free-market", in this context, involves substantial government regulation of market participants and activities in the manner that "free-market" is usually, in other contexts, used to signal the absence of.