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How a Danish Town Helped Young Muslims Turn Away from ISIS

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Re: How a Danish Town Helped Young Muslims Turn Away from ISIS

#41

Post by noobermin »

jacquesm wrote: post #14
internaut wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your solution to this? Not being sarcastic downvoter! I really want to know.

You're not going to like it, and it's not much of a solution anyway. Time. Many generations and quite possibly civil war or outright war between nation states. Humanity does not have a very good track record when it comes to learning from the past, so we are set to repeat history a couple of more times before we get it right. Let's hope I'm wrong about this, but the rate at which all the stable parts of the world are…

No offense, but you are discounting studies for what sounds like your intuition, which I'd argue is the entire point about science, to better inform us against our biases.

I'll take what science says over what the media hype is any day.

Re: How a Danish Town Helped Young Muslims Turn Away from ISIS

#42

Post by jomamaxx »

Animats wrote: post #8
jacquesm wrote: post #2

Fascinating, and worrisome. This paragraph jumped out at me because of the numbers involved: "Starting in 2012, 34 people went from Aarhus to Syria. As far as the police know, six were killed and 10 are still over there. Of the 18 who came back home, all showed up in Aarslev and Link's office, as did hundreds of other potential radicals in Aarhus — about 330 in total." If a small town like Aarhus harboured 34 people…

Aarhus is the second-largest city in Denmark. Copenhagen is only ~562K. But still, that's a lot of people for what most countries consider a small city. "Potential radical" can be anyone who goes to a mosque with a militant iman. That may not be a meaningful designation. Only about 1 in 10,000 tried to join ISIS. About 250 Americans have tried to join ISIS, says the FBI. That's about 1 in a million for the US. Around…

It is very interesting, given that the US is directly involved in Syria, whereas Denmark is not.

It has much to do with how people integrated into Europe v America.

Europe is very difficult to integrated into - they are ethnic groups. You can mostly 'become American' but it's almost impossible to 'become Danish' unless you are there from a very early age.

Americans in particular have a hard time with this, because they don't 'see' ethnicity, and often use the term 'race' which is the wrong term to describe groups. 'Race' is genetics, not particularly meaningful. Ethnicity is a set of values, behaviours, cultural norms, i.e. attitudes towards, family, government, education, religion, etc. etc..

Most nations outside the Americas are simply formalized governments of ethnic groups.

An American passport pretty much makes you American. A Danish passport makes you a Danish citizen, but not necessarily Danish.

Also - Europeans are more intellectually open minded, but more behaviourally cloistered, whereas Americans are sometimes a little less intellectually open (i.e. popular ideas, policies), but in practical reality, almost always more 'open'. Euros talk benevolence but hang out with their own kind. Americans sometimes talk anti-immigration, but they are pretty fluid in terms of social and business relationships.

Re: How a Danish Town Helped Young Muslims Turn Away from ISIS

#43

Post by ameen »

HappyFunGuy wrote: post #28

Hey anyone know if muslim population correlate with terror attacks, and if so, is it causative?

When you say Muslim you're ignoring other important factors as well. All attackers in France were petty criminals who had prior convictions and poor human beings with a history of spousal abuse, alcoholism, etc.[1] They most likely were at the bottom of the economic strata weren't educated beyond school or had well paying jobs or opportunities.

Seems more likely to be an issue of disillusioned youth making poor choices that hurt themselves and others.

As a counterpoint to your supposed claim. Muslims do exist in large numbers in Singapore, yet they are allowed to work and are given equal opportunity and do contribute economically to the nation.

[1] - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3691895/He-drank-alc...

Re: How a Danish Town Helped Young Muslims Turn Away from ISIS

#44

Post by jomamaxx »

jacquesm wrote: post #34
digi_owl wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Potential radical" can be anyone who goes to a mosque with a militant iman. That oversimplifies a bit. You do not simply walk in a well adjusted individual and walk out a radical. If you check the background of all the people mentioned, i bet you that you will find history involving social services, trouble at school, possibly a rap sheet. Again and again, no matter if a person is muslim, christian, or something e…

Just like all those other confused teenagers that end up shooting up their highschool and similar. Having a different skin color, being ostracized by society for whatever reason, ignored by the girls the media suggest they should be interested in, it's not easy being a young male in any society. We used to have military service but that path is not without problems of its own.

"Just like all those other confused teenagers that end up shooting up their highschool and similar."

They are related but it would be wrong to equate them.

One is an ideological movement with leaders, propaganda, formalized groups, $$$$, ethnic orientation and nationalism etc..

It would be like saying the Nazis were just a bunch of angry men. Obviously, they were that, but it wasn't the primary driver. ISIS, radical Salafism/Wahhabism etc. are organized forces.

Re: How a Danish Town Helped Young Muslims Turn Away from ISIS

#45

Post by HappyFunGuy »

noobermin wrote: post #36
jomamaxx wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're probably downvoted because of the difficulty some people have when the facts might possibly contradict their ideological motivations. It's a problem across the political spectrum. Nobody wants to know the truth. They want to push their narrative.

It probably is a part of it but it's most likely because such heavily sarcastic comments that do not add to the discussion are usually down-voted, regardless of whether they should be taken seriously or not. Such is the standard on HN. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume since they are a newer user they don't know this.

Hey appeal to tone guys, real stats? I for real do not have them.

Re: How a Danish Town Helped Young Muslims Turn Away from ISIS

#46

Post by jomamaxx »

noobermin wrote: post #36
jomamaxx wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're probably downvoted because of the difficulty some people have when the facts might possibly contradict their ideological motivations. It's a problem across the political spectrum. Nobody wants to know the truth. They want to push their narrative.

It probably is a part of it but it's most likely because such heavily sarcastic comments that do not add to the discussion are usually down-voted, regardless of whether they should be taken seriously or not. Such is the standard on HN. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume since they are a newer user they don't know this.

Well I don't think it's a sarcastic comment, and it's a perfectly valid inquisition.

Re: How a Danish Town Helped Young Muslims Turn Away from ISIS

#47

Post by jacquesm »

noobermin wrote: post #41
jacquesm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not going to like it, and it's not much of a solution anyway. Time. Many generations and quite possibly civil war or outright war between nation states. Humanity does not have a very good track record when it comes to learning from the past, so we are set to repeat history a couple of more times before we get it right. Let's hope I'm wrong about this, but the rate at which all the stable parts of the world are…

No offense, but you are discounting studies for what sounds like your intuition, which I'd argue is the entire point about science, to better inform us against our biases. I'll take what science says over what the media hype is any day.

You're more than welcome to.

But there is a ton of evidence that the foundations of many societies are shifting and not for the better. That doesn't immediately reflect in the statistics (death tolls, crime rates) until a certain critical mass has been reached.

Just like you can't tell a tsunami from a small wave visually until it reaches the shore.

There isn't a country in Europe that has not moved substantially towards nationalism in the last decade or so. The foundations of Europe are being attacked and countries that were relatively stable (Turkey, Greece, Spain, UK) are all facing internal forces strong enough to change those countries in substantial ways. Then there is Ukraine (which is far from over) and Syria.

All in all, 'science' is in this case mostly tallying up the dead a couple of years after the bodies hit the ground. It's lagging behind the curve considerably and it doesn't even log places like Iraq and Syria in those statistics because they are anomalies.

Re: How a Danish Town Helped Young Muslims Turn Away from ISIS

#48

Post by HappyFunGuy »

ameen wrote: post #43
HappyFunGuy wrote: post #28

Hey anyone know if muslim population correlate with terror attacks, and if so, is it causative?

When you say Muslim you're ignoring other important factors as well. All attackers in France were petty criminals who had prior convictions and poor human beings with a history of spousal abuse, alcoholism, etc.[1] They most likely were at the bottom of the economic strata weren't educated beyond school or had well paying jobs or opportunities. Seems more likely to be an issue of disillusioned youth making poor choic…

So you're saying ban poor people. How dare you! And agist as well. All youth make poor decisions and hurt people!?1!one!1

Saying I have a muslim friend, he's cool, is not a counterpoint for a literal request for statistics. That statistic you presented was of one, albeit outliar in nearly all areas country. We need better/more data.

Re: How a Danish Town Helped Young Muslims Turn Away from ISIS

#49

Post by jacquesm »

jomamaxx wrote: post #44
jacquesm wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like all those other confused teenagers that end up shooting up their highschool and similar. Having a different skin color, being ostracized by society for whatever reason, ignored by the girls the media suggest they should be interested in, it's not easy being a young male in any society. We used to have military service but that path is not without problems of its own.

"Just like all those other confused teenagers that end up shooting up their highschool and similar." They are related but it would be wrong to equate them. One is an ideological movement with leaders, propaganda, formalized groups, $$$$, ethnic orientation and nationalism etc.. It would be like saying the Nazis were just a bunch of angry men. Obviously, they were that, but it wasn't the primary driver. ISIS, radical…

That's true, and it is a big differentiator. But if you think of the dis-enfranchised youths as the fertile ground then the 'leaders' (aka cynical old men) are simply reaping what is already there.

Nothing easier than giving a frustrated young kid a sense of purpose and a way to make a name for themselves. Their background makes that even easier because they already perceive (quite often rightly so) that the deck is stacked against them.

Re: How a Danish Town Helped Young Muslims Turn Away from ISIS

#50

Post by douche »

jacquesm wrote: post #47
noobermin wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense, but you are discounting studies for what sounds like your intuition, which I'd argue is the entire point about science, to better inform us against our biases. I'll take what science says over what the media hype is any day.

You're more than welcome to. But there is a ton of evidence that the foundations of many societies are shifting and not for the better. That doesn't immediately reflect in the statistics (death tolls, crime rates) until a certain critical mass has been reached. Just like you can't tell a tsunami from a small wave visually until it reaches the shore. There isn't a country in Europe that has not moved substantially tow…

Is shifting in response to what you experience a bad thing? If you're not seeing much good coming from an external focus, then maybe it's worth pivoting and focusing on the needs of your own people for a while.

Of course, I'm an American, so I don't see nationalism as a dirty word. You're supposed to be proud of your country and support it first and foremost.

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