The Fake Factory That Pumped Out Real Money • Hacker News Board

Re: The Fake Factory That Pumped Out Real Money

#61

Post by Dylan16807 » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 7:29 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #24

seibelj wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EPA allows biodiesel refiners to make up their own serial numbers. They sell the numbers in excel spreadsheets to oil companies. No one ever verifies that the numbers match real barrels of biodiesel. Criminals moved in

THANK YOU. >3000 words to 36. These long form articles are not for everyone, a TL;DR summary is always welcome.

That's not really a summary of the article, which is about a particular company.

And the article itself already has a nice condensed explanation of the fraud: http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-fake-biofuel-factory/...

Re: The Fake Factory That Pumped Out Real Money

#62

Post by rwmj » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 7:31 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #2

It's a typical case of creating a wrong metric and then steering by it. I really don't like these 'credits' systems, the same goes for CO2 credits and all the other systems out there like this. They're a magnet for fraud and rarely if ever serve to actually remedy the issue they're aimed at. It's just a way to move money around, not to solve problems. The interesting bit here is that is actually quite hard to figure…

I don't know if RINs are good or bad, but I don't think you can say that this article proves anything.

It might equally be that the system is open to widespread fraud, but with a bit of effort it can be made watertight.

Or that there is a tiny amount of fraud which the authorities are mostly on top of, as the case of the two imprisoned felons from the article shows.

Re: The Fake Factory That Pumped Out Real Money

#63

Post by Sebume » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 7:32 PM UTC

Rivkin is a short, stocky 51-year-old who grew up in Atlanta, the son of a surgeon. He started Green Diesel in October 2005.

Re: The Fake Factory That Pumped Out Real Money

#64

Post by Alex3917 » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 7:47 PM UTC

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #53

Alex3917 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An optimal tax system taxes things and behaviors we don't want Except for that the goal isn't to punish polluters, it's to get carbon to a level that won't result in the end of human civilization. By moralizing the issue you're just making it more likely that we won't get there.

Of course the goal isn't to punish polluters. It's to convince them to pollute less. This is why tax things and behaviors we don't want - to make it more expensive, so that there's less of it.

> It's to convince them to pollute less.

That's not the goal. What matters is the total amount of pollution, not how much any individual pollutes.

Re: The Fake Factory That Pumped Out Real Money

#65

Post by Retric » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 7:56 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #8

Pxtl wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's why most economists I've read seem to agree that carbon tax is better than co2 credit cap-and-trade systems - simpler and harder to game, flawed only because it includes the word "tax" which is unpalatable to the public.

A tax is actually vastly more complicated and easier to game. Remember, the goal is to cap emissions, not to raise money. When you start with a cap and work backwards towards the clearing price, you are guaranteed to be meet that cap. But when you start by setting a price, there is zero guarantee that you're going to meet your emissions target. Also, the point of cap and trade is that it lets societies meet their emi…

The missing Carbin tax is correcting an externality which subsidies coal and other fossil fuels. We may chose to produce zero coal or the same amount, but markets only work with accurate information.

Re: The Fake Factory That Pumped Out Real Money

#66

Post by Retric » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 7:59 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #50

fsargent wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cap and Trade and a Carbon Tax are equivalent in outcome. Cap and trade would impose fees on everyone regardless of how much it costs them to lower emissions also. The problem with Cap and Trade is that it targets the large scale emitters rather than the item desired to be limited. Imagine that you had five major producers putting out 30% of airborne carbon, and 50,000 minor producers putting out 70%. The cost of adm…

> An optimal tax system taxes things and behaviors we don't want Except for that the goal isn't to punish polluters, it's to get carbon to a level that won't result in the end of human civilization. By moralizing the issue you're just making it more likely that we won't get there.

But 'producers' are not the polluters, it's consumers driving cars that are polluting. The goal is not to punish everyone, it's to get them to make other choices.

Re: The Fake Factory That Pumped Out Real Money

#67

Post by winstonewert » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 8:02 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #8

Pxtl wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's why most economists I've read seem to agree that carbon tax is better than co2 credit cap-and-trade systems - simpler and harder to game, flawed only because it includes the word "tax" which is unpalatable to the public.

A tax is actually vastly more complicated and easier to game. Remember, the goal is to cap emissions, not to raise money. When you start with a cap and work backwards towards the clearing price, you are guaranteed to be meet that cap. But when you start by setting a price, there is zero guarantee that you're going to meet your emissions target. Also, the point of cap and trade is that it lets societies meet their emi…

"Remember, the goal is to cap emissions"

Is it? I would say the the goal is to reduce carbon usage to situations where the benefits outweight all (social and economic) costs. So, our goal shouldn't be to reduce emissions to some arbitrary level, but to reduce usage to the level where benefits=costs.

Re: The Fake Factory That Pumped Out Real Money

#68

Post by blaisio » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 8:19 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #32

blaisio wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you just don't understand how a cap and trade system works. You should try doing a google search to read up on it. It's confusing at first, but there's nothing inherently uncontrollable about it. The only reason these scams are allowed to happen is the EPA doesn't have enough manpower to constantly watch over every facility to make sure fuel is actually being produced.

I think I understand it just fine, thank you. > The only reason these scams are allowed to happen is the EPA doesn't have enough manpower to constantly watch over every facility to make sure fuel is actually being produced. So, if you don't have that manpower don't set up a scheme like that. Trust but verify, remember?

I mean, in the end it's impossible to completely prevent any scams from occurring. Even if we used a tax based system people could still lie, and we will wouldn't be able to see if they're telling the truth. It's not feasible to constantly check up on everyone.

They did verify that the RINs were being produced properly, which is what led to the guy being caught.

So I'm not sure what your argument is here. If you understand cap and trade systems, then you know that they aren't inherently gameable (which you just admitted). So are you saying that you think the EPA needs more funding?

Re: The Fake Factory That Pumped Out Real Money

#69

Post by jacquesm » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 9:01 PM UTC

blaisio wrote: post #68

jacquesm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I understand it just fine, thank you. > The only reason these scams are allowed to happen is the EPA doesn't have enough manpower to constantly watch over every facility to make sure fuel is actually being produced. So, if you don't have that manpower don't set up a scheme like that. Trust but verify, remember?

I mean, in the end it's impossible to completely prevent any scams from occurring. Even if we used a tax based system people could still lie, and we will wouldn't be able to see if they're telling the truth. It's not feasible to constantly check up on everyone. They did verify that the RINs were being produced properly, which is what led to the guy being caught. So I'm not sure what your argument is here. If you unde…

> So are you saying that you think the EPA needs more funding?

They should have at least enough funding that they can catch scammers like this before they cause 10's of millions of $ of damage.

Re: The Fake Factory That Pumped Out Real Money

#70

Post by wbl » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 9:09 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #23

fsargent wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cap and Trade and a Carbon Tax are equivalent in outcome. Cap and trade would impose fees on everyone regardless of how much it costs them to lower emissions also. The problem with Cap and Trade is that it targets the large scale emitters rather than the item desired to be limited. Imagine that you had five major producers putting out 30% of airborne carbon, and 50,000 minor producers putting out 70%. The cost of adm…

As California's attempts to tax mileage of hybrid and electric vehicles proves, if you create an additional source of revenue for the government, tax levels will bear no relation to the harm they're designed to compensate for. It becomes just another way for the government to raise taxes without admitting to doing so.

The gas tax was set to charge for road wear, not carbon externialities