Cyberpower crushes coup • Hacker News Board

Re: Cyberpower crushes coup

#31

Post by iofj » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 1:05 PM UTC

douche wrote: post #25

Ataturk must be rolling over in his grave. It's a damned shame that the coup didn't succeed - Turkey has been one of the few reasonably successful Muslim countries at Westernizing, brought about because of the colossal failures of the old Ottoman Empire. Erdogan's backsliding into the same theocratic-tinged islamist government is especially troubling for a NATO member, and one that is slated to join the EU eventually…

Staging a false attack on the state is how Hitler suspended civil liberties in Germany, and we all know what happened next.

Re: Cyberpower crushes coup

#32

Post by joesmo » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 2:02 PM UTC

douche wrote: post #25

Ataturk must be rolling over in his grave. It's a damned shame that the coup didn't succeed - Turkey has been one of the few reasonably successful Muslim countries at Westernizing, brought about because of the colossal failures of the old Ottoman Empire. Erdogan's backsliding into the same theocratic-tinged islamist government is especially troubling for a NATO member, and one that is slated to join the EU eventually…

I hope that the EU will stop all proceedings on this now that it's crystal clear Turkey cannot be a candidate. You can't have an EU country that can't even govern itself as part of the EU. Turkey is neither free nor stable. It's arguably not even in Europe. If the coup had succeeded, maybe it could eventually have been a country worthy of EU membership, but I'm pretty sure Erdogan is not going to lean back towards liberty after these incidents and make the country even worse. Not to mention the extreme unpopularity of this idea in Europe.

Re: Cyberpower crushes coup

#33

Post by patates » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 2:19 PM UTC

Theodores wrote: post #20

Sometimes with big political events one sees something that just does not sit right with one's overall understanding of events. If the events were a movie or teevee series you would consider these things to be flaws in the plot. Initially I was open to the idea that the coup was what the mainstream media said it was, however, the internet has opened me up to the idea that the whole thing was staged. This analysis bet…

Don't underestimate his supporters unwillingness to hear anything that doesn't align with their beliefs.

He went against his best ally at the time, the fallout was both sides having their secrets made public by the other. However, he increased his votes in the next election as his supporters, with his leadership created a nation-wide "OMG he's being framed please ignore all the evidence saying otherwise" campaign.

He is also missing a university diploma without which he can't be the president and the one he has used till the news broke has been shown to be fake (dates, signature and department do not match). The government's TV channel removed all the videos of him talking about his university days and no news channel other than the ones who are labeled as "conspiracy theorists" dared to publish anything about it.

And some of my friends still ask me if I want to go back to Turkey...

Re: Cyberpower crushes coup

#34

Post by fatihpense » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 2:21 PM UTC

Lesson learned specific to Turkey: Don't try that again.

Re: Cyberpower crushes coup

#35

Post by walshemj » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 2:26 PM UTC

iofj wrote: post #31

douche wrote: post #25

Ataturk must be rolling over in his grave. It's a damned shame that the coup didn't succeed - Turkey has been one of the few reasonably successful Muslim countries at Westernizing, brought about because of the colossal failures of the old Ottoman Empire. Erdogan's backsliding into the same theocratic-tinged islamist government is especially troubling for a NATO member, and one that is slated to join the EU eventually…

Staging a false attack on the state is how Hitler suspended civil liberties in Germany, and we all know what happened next.

You mean the Reichstag fire? The consensus is that it was a lone wolf communist - The Nazis where in a panic on the night.

Re: Cyberpower crushes coup

#36

Post by douche » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 2:29 PM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #35

iofj wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Staging a false attack on the state is how Hitler suspended civil liberties in Germany, and we all know what happened next.

You mean the Reichstag fire? The consensus is that it was a lone wolf communist - The Nazis where in a panic on the night.

The Germans did attempt to justify the invasion of Poland using a false flag operation[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

Re: Cyberpower crushes coup

#37

Post by egeozcan » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 2:35 PM UTC

srtjstjsj wrote: post #16

CommanderData wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Turkish friend told me the Turks have been aware of attempts of destabilize their country. It was mostly the general population that came out and stopped the military coup. The Turks don't want another Syria or Libia where western backed rebels have made those places no-go countries. Turkey at least has a very friendly and thriving tourism eco system.

Erdogan has been destabilizing Turkey for years. > Turkey at least has a very friendly and thriving tourism eco system. The main airport was bombed in a terrorist attack this month.

Yeah, none of my friends from outside the country even wanted to attend my wedding, let alone going there for vacation.

Re: Cyberpower crushes coup

#38

Post by fatihpense » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 2:46 PM UTC

douche wrote: post #25

Ataturk must be rolling over in his grave. It's a damned shame that the coup didn't succeed - Turkey has been one of the few reasonably successful Muslim countries at Westernizing, brought about because of the colossal failures of the old Ottoman Empire. Erdogan's backsliding into the same theocratic-tinged islamist government is especially troubling for a NATO member, and one that is slated to join the EU eventually…

Firstly, this wasn't a coup attempt organised by all military, only a fraction.

What would a coup solve actually? Does it change people's mind? It is this kind of disrespect to voters which gave rise to popularity of Erdogan in his political life. People are not sheep(sometimes) and they get angry if their choice in polls affected in dirty ways.

For the most of the people in Turkey, this wasn't about the Erdogan. This coup attempt was about democracy and freedom. Most people doesn't think everything is roses, they only think coup would be the worst.

One more thing I noticed is that some people in the world seems that they don't have any disgust for a coup. Turkey has a long history of coups and elder people have told many stories about them. I think that brings some education.

Re: Cyberpower crushes coup

#39

Post by Zigurd » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 2:50 PM UTC

Considering it was the response of the people that was a large factor in the coup failing, there's a lot of people here wishing the Deep State (a name which was coined to describe the situation in Turkey) succeeded, against the will of the people.

But on other days, people here are concerned about interlinked security and military liaisons constituting a Deep State in their own countries, limiting autonomy and democracy.

Have you considered that the rise of Islamism is in part caused by the fact that secular military and security services in Islamic countries were coopted to some degree, and that religious-based politics is harder to subvert in that way?

Re: Cyberpower crushes coup

#40

Post by ohyes » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 2:52 PM UTC

Pica_soO wrote: post #26

CommanderData wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Turkish friend told me the Turks have been aware of attempts of destabilize their country. It was mostly the general population that came out and stopped the military coup. The Turks don't want another Syria or Libia where western backed rebels have made those places no-go countries. Turkey at least has a very friendly and thriving tourism eco system.

Yet they voted the same type of guy/party who ru(i)ned syria or libia to power? And enough of that evil western/jew outsiders scapegoats conspiracy theory's to avoid the realization that a whole culture produces failing governments on a regular basis. Those rebels are mainly backed up by local powers- Saudi arabia, Iran and yes turkey. Something in these cultures is unable to keep institutions and democracy alive. An…

Poverty, lack of education, and lack of opportunity would be my trio of undermining traits. It's a lot harder to convince someone with a 9-5 job, a family and a mortgage to overthrow the government.

If we think of this as Islamic nationalism, it fits the pattern where things get really bad for common people, and someone rallies them against a perceived other in order to consolidate his own power.

Be wary of anyone who wants to blame an out-group for your economic issues, be it Muslims, Mexicans, infidels, Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, etc. (Why I'm afraid of Trump).

I think sitting at our cushy desk jobs in the west it is hard to empathize with the real hardship people have been experiencing in that region for a long time.

I have no knowledge of the causal direction here, honestly. I think there's an assumption by some vocal pundits that it's Islam -> holy war -> poverty.

I don't think that's clear. More likely it's poverty -> malleable population -> some cause promises to make things good again (Like they were in the caliphate, like they were in any fabled past) -> people believe it and fight for it. There's historical precedent for this.

(Which of course exacerbates the poverty because of wanton destruction of capital/infrastructure, people not being able to leave home, intelligentsia flight, etc). Eventually you get some version of an autocracy. The type of autocracy is to some extent irrelevant, although theocratic autocracies appear to be disproportionately brutal...