How Britain has been kept safe for a decade • Hacker News Board

Re: How Britain has been kept safe for a decade

#11

Post by raverbashing » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 12:50 PM UTC

hokkos wrote: post #8

hliyan wrote: post #2

Attributing all this to intelligence sharing alone seems an oversimplification. I suspect the difference in the level of assimilation between British Muslims and their French counterparts is the biggest factor.

The problem with French intelligence is the number of services : − la Direction générale de la sécurité intérieure (DGSI) − la Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure (DGSE) − le Service central du renseignement territorial (SCRT) − la Sous-direction de l’anticipation opérationnelle de la gendarmerie nationale (SDAO) − la Direction du renseignement militaire (DRM) − la Direction de la protection et de la sécurit…

> A 2000 pages and 6 months enquirie by a bipartisan commission

You're saying like this is part of the solution, but it's part of the problem

Though it seems that some of those still might make sense as a separate entity, like Tracfin and DNRED

Re: How Britain has been kept safe for a decade

#12

Post by matdrewin » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 12:50 PM UTC

jkraker wrote: post #6

If you have various groups working a problem and they don't communicate, they are significantly disadvantaged relative to groups that talk. Each of these groups have their particular specialties, and it could only be beneficial for them to communicate. Now whether this communication is THE standout factor preventing attacks...that seems a stretch.

I would counter that being in the loop on everything adds a lot of noise and decreases your focus (because you have much more to look at) possibly making you less effective. Communication is hard.

Re: How Britain has been kept safe for a decade

#13

Post by sevenless » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 12:50 PM UTC

JupiterMoon wrote: post #9

zimbatm wrote: post #5

> Forty terrorist plots have been disrupted since 2005 (in Britain) - including seven in the past 18 months. Does anyone know where these numbers come from? Are the information to the individual cases available?

It depends upon who you trust. Police/government release figures and press releases. However, one of the problems with the official statements is that terrorism trials in the UK can be (and are) held in closed courts in which evidence is withheld. Therefore the public cannot know if what they are being told is accurate+. + I don't actually think that we are being lied to (at the moment) but with closed trials we can'…

I agree it's unlikely they are outright lying but it is possible some of those terrorist plans were instigated in sting operations. So it's not clear how many of them would have proceeded absent government involvement. This is similar to the US: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/government-age...

Re: How Britain has been kept safe for a decade

#14

Post by yardie » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 12:57 PM UTC

hliyan wrote: post #2

Attributing all this to intelligence sharing alone seems an oversimplification. I suspect the difference in the level of assimilation between British Muslims and their French counterparts is the biggest factor.

I've traveled between London and Paris frequently. I found the visibility of fundamentalist muslims in the UK to be much higher than anywhere in France. The burka and niqab, for example, is not only illegal but even before being so it was extremely unpopular in France (I believe the estimate was ~200 for the entire country). Yet, walking around London and it's outskirts this was a common sight.

France has managed to avoid most islamic extremists by working closely with local mosques; by not treating them as the enemy but as a local resource. The extremists are spreading their views through the internet. They are not welcome in the mosque.

Re: How Britain has been kept safe for a decade

#15

Post by jkraker » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 1:07 PM UTC

matdrewin wrote: post #12

jkraker wrote: post #6

If you have various groups working a problem and they don't communicate, they are significantly disadvantaged relative to groups that talk. Each of these groups have their particular specialties, and it could only be beneficial for them to communicate. Now whether this communication is THE standout factor preventing attacks...that seems a stretch.

I would counter that being in the loop on everything adds a lot of noise and decreases your focus (because you have much more to look at) possibly making you less effective. Communication is hard.

A fair point. I assumed with the article that the communication is working to some extent. I have no way of knowing whether that is indeed the case.

Re: How Britain has been kept safe for a decade

#16

Post by flexie » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 1:17 PM UTC

sevenless wrote: post #7

Touch a big fucking piece of wood with that title, BBC. Guns are much rarer in the UK than on the continent. This obviously doesn't make attacks impossible but it does make life harder for terrorists. For example, the maniac who murdered Lee Rigby with a knife tried to get a gun first. All he could get was a modified starter pistol that jammed on the first shot. The right wing terrorist who murdered Jo Cox apparently…

Good point, but it doesn't explain the Nice or Bruxelles attacks where the weapons were a truck and bombs, items that are as common or uncommon on the continent as in the UK.

Re: How Britain has been kept safe for a decade

#17

Post by jahnu » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 1:18 PM UTC

JupiterMoon wrote: post #9

zimbatm wrote: post #5

> Forty terrorist plots have been disrupted since 2005 (in Britain) - including seven in the past 18 months. Does anyone know where these numbers come from? Are the information to the individual cases available?

It depends upon who you trust. Police/government release figures and press releases. However, one of the problems with the official statements is that terrorism trials in the UK can be (and are) held in closed courts in which evidence is withheld. Therefore the public cannot know if what they are being told is accurate+. + I don't actually think that we are being lied to (at the moment) but with closed trials we can'…

Imagine if the Birmingham 6 or Guilford 4 and Maguire 7 were tried and convicted in secret courts.

Re: How Britain has been kept safe for a decade

#18

Post by sevenless » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 1:21 PM UTC

flexie wrote: post #16

sevenless wrote: post #7

Touch a big fucking piece of wood with that title, BBC. Guns are much rarer in the UK than on the continent. This obviously doesn't make attacks impossible but it does make life harder for terrorists. For example, the maniac who murdered Lee Rigby with a knife tried to get a gun first. All he could get was a modified starter pistol that jammed on the first shot. The right wing terrorist who murdered Jo Cox apparently…

Good point, but it doesn't explain the Nice or Bruxelles attacks where the weapons were a truck and bombs, items that are as common or uncommon on the continent as in the UK.

Of course, but shooting attacks have been a major component of terrorism in Europe (Paris, Charlie Hebdo, Brussels Jewish Museum, etc). I have to also point out that it's still not clear at this time whether Nice was a terrorist attack.

The UK may be better protected against "truck amuck" incidents as we had so many IRA car and truck bombs. Risers and bollards are very common around public spaces (and also, we don't have the luxury of miles of riviera beach front...). For example a ramming attack at Glasgow airport in 2007 was prevented by bollards.

As for bombs, I certainly hope someone buying the ingredients in the UK would immediately draw police attention.

Re: How Britain has been kept safe for a decade

#19

Post by blisterpeanuts » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 1:24 PM UTC

Intelligence sharing is a good idea, but the Nice attacker appears to have been an individual with mental health issues and no known fundamentalist tendencies.

His family and associates probably knew something was wrong with him; he threatened his ex and was violence prone at times. Unfortunately, there's not a lot you can do, especially in a free society, unless the person runs afoul of the law. If they stay out of trouble, they can plan horrific attacks at a time of their choosing.

The only thing I can think of is to have more available mental health services including residential treatment facilities, and make it easier for concerned families to get someone the help he needs before a tragedy occurs. Probably in an immigrant community, there's the shame factor to deal with as well; so discretion and confidentiality would be highly important.

Beyond that, France and other countries taking in large numbers of immigrants and asylum seekers from troubled regions need to obviously limit the numbers and scrutinize each applicant more carefully. Easier said than done, but they have to try.

Re: How Britain has been kept safe for a decade

#20

Post by bengalister » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 1:35 PM UTC

Maybe the lack of coordination between intelligence agencies is to blame (it cannot help anyway) but it cannot alone explain the difference. First we (I am French) have a larger muslim population: 3-3,5 millions for UK the double in France mainly from North Africa. So statistically speaking there's a higher chance of having islamists in France. Also many of French of Arabic origin just hate or despise France and the causes have different roots: historical (Algerian war), cultural and societal (high unemployment rate especially among arabic population). For UK, I don't think their population of muslims origin "have a grudge" on their host. Every Bastille day, new year's eve or big event does not go without burning cars and policemen attacked by young people with many of them being of North African origin, and it's getting worse with time. Of course relations between the different ethnic group are not going to get any better now .

I am very pessimistic about the future of my country. I see a lot of educated young people wanting to leave it (and not only for business opportunities) and the level of violence raising up. Bad time for being French.