Shedding light on the dark web • Hacker News Board

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#121

Post by hasenj » Thu, Jul 14, 2016, 9:36 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #43

dopamean wrote: post #11

Any time I read anything about the illegal drug trade I am struck by how much the industry would change if all drugs were legalized everywhere. So much effort is expended to keep things hidden from law enforcement and other criminals that it adds an incredible amount of friction to the purchasing process for the purchaser and the seller. From the buyer's perspective you now have to go into business with some often un…

> It's really a shitty experience for everyone involved. However, it creates many thousands of very well paid jobs for police, lawyers, prison employees, etc. - you know, the people that create the laws. Long ago I might have considered that there might be some justification for these laws (or anywhere there's rules really), but nowadays when you wonder why "the way something is" is, it's easier to just assume someon…

It's way more plausible to assume that the average person (the average family person, not the average hippy) doesn't like to live in a neighbourhood where his children see prostitutes and drug users day in and day out.

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#122

Post by jshevek » Thu, Jul 14, 2016, 9:37 PM UTC

pzone wrote: post #78

Torgo wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are underestimating the number of libertarians on this site that just see the destructive effects of an incredibly addictive dangerous drug as a problem you could solve using the free market.

I think you're mischaracterizing people here. I think everyone would agree drug addiction is a problem that requries some government intervention. But clearly the policy we have right now is not great. The argument is that legalization + prevention + treatment would be, overall, better than prohibition. Not perfect, but better.

I absolutely agree that the parent didn't do justice to the range of opinions, and your post improves on the discussion.

I'd like to nitpick the word "requires" (vs "is best served by")

> everyone would agree drug addiction is a problem that requries some government intervention.

Personally, I believe that it is absolutely theoretically possible to address our societies drug addiction problems without any government intervention, if only we as a culture were willing to do so.

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#123

Post by logfromblammo » Thu, Jul 14, 2016, 9:37 PM UTC

at-fates-hands wrote: post #110

themartorana wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A majority of Americans support marijuana legalization: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/25/suppo... The original banning of marijuana is ridiculous and riddled with racism and xenophobia: http://www.salon.com/2015/07/02/the_real_reason_marijuana_is... This is just marijuana. Drug legality and policy is mired in racism and money politics. It is just as conspiracy-theory as it sounds.

>> This is just marijuana. I would hasten to say this. I totally support a lot of the legalization for medicinal purposes but there's still way too much of this happening: Driving while high on marijuana causing spike in fatal accidents - http://www.today.com/health/driving-while-high-marijuana-cau... Police: Driver Was High Before Crash That Killed Massachusetts State Trooper - http://www.necn.com/news/new-england/D…

One must be cautious to avoid the "Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc" fallacy.

Furthermore, take care to notice "newsworthiness bias", which is when disproportionate media interest in an issue makes it seem more prevalent. Also, "if it bleeds, it leads" has been a journalistic aphorism for a long time. Watch out for articles in the next few months about injuries caused by "Pokemon Go" specifically, rather than something more generic and mundane, like "mobile phone games".

As some organizations with political clout have vested interest in continued prohibition and some influence of mainstream media, my opinion is that there is a slight bias in favor of running news stories that tend to portray marijuana use in a negative light. Of course, there has always been significant bias in the counterculture in favor of portraying marijuana as harmless or benign.

For a benchmark, acetaminophen causes roughly 450 deaths/year (in the US) from acute liver failure, as a verifiable medical statistic. The CDC believes about 88000 deaths/year (in the US) can be attributed to ethanol, from all proximate causes. Perhaps 480000 deaths/year (in the US) may be attributed to smoked tobacco.

Clearly, society has some tolerance for fatalities from legal drug use.

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#124

Post by hasenj » Thu, Jul 14, 2016, 9:41 PM UTC

andrei_says_ wrote: post #68

dopamean wrote: post #11

Any time I read anything about the illegal drug trade I am struck by how much the industry would change if all drugs were legalized everywhere. So much effort is expended to keep things hidden from law enforcement and other criminals that it adds an incredible amount of friction to the purchasing process for the purchaser and the seller. From the buyer's perspective you now have to go into business with some often un…

Take a look at this short overview of research on addiction and the futility of the drug war. http://youtu.be/wJUXLqNHCaI The Drug War approach is built on a few axioms: - people who take drugs would not do so if drugs are unavailable - making something illegal prevents it from happening - people who take drugs are somehow less moral or weaker or "bad" and deserve to be persecuted All of these have been disproven. Ad…

I think you're straw-manning here.

The intent is certainly to make it more difficult, specially in the open.

The premise is, if you want to do drugs, you're on your own. There's so much risk. You'll be dealing with bad people. You have do it in secret. etc.

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#125

Post by jshevek » Thu, Jul 14, 2016, 9:47 PM UTC

Cshelton wrote: post #31

Sellers of drugs, will ALWAYS sell drugs, both illegal and legal. Buyers/Users of drugs will ALWAYS buy/use drugs, illegal or legal. It is an interaction between humans of Earth, no government or entity, no system or blocks will ever stop it. Shut down the internet, it will continue. Short of a massive purge of life, drugs will never go away. If you somehow...were able to shut down the "darkweb", it would move into s…

I agree with your criticism of the war on drugs, but I'm surprised at this hyperbole:

> Sellers of drugs, will ALWAYS sell drugs, both illegal and legal.

Are you saying that 3,000 years from now, neohumans will be using addictive chemicals that damage their body in order to modify their brain chemistry and induce related experiences?

Can't we illustrate the uselessness of the war on drugs without resorting to statements so sweeping and absolute as to be absurd when taken literally?

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#126

Post by ponyous » Thu, Jul 14, 2016, 9:47 PM UTC

Archio wrote: post #79

Torgo wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any time I read anything about legalizing all drugs I am struck by how that opinion would change if they tried to function with a heroin addiction.

Why have you never tried heroin? I am struck by how often the response to that question is not "because it is illegal".

Is this your actual experience? I have talked with few friends about this and all of them pretty much said: "I don't want to destroy my life"

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#127

Post by hasenj » Thu, Jul 14, 2016, 9:47 PM UTC

pzone wrote: post #78

Torgo wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are underestimating the number of libertarians on this site that just see the destructive effects of an incredibly addictive dangerous drug as a problem you could solve using the free market.

I think you're mischaracterizing people here. I think everyone would agree drug addiction is a problem that requries some government intervention. But clearly the policy we have right now is not great. The argument is that legalization + prevention + treatment would be, overall, better than prohibition. Not perfect, but better.

Addiction is a personal psychological problem. How can the government intervene? The government cannot make you happy.

Look at obesity rates.

People get addicted because their life sucks. How can the government make their life not suck?

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#128

Post by e40 » Thu, Jul 14, 2016, 9:53 PM UTC

skylark wrote: post #53

mistermann wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's really a shitty experience for everyone involved. However, it creates many thousands of very well paid jobs for police, lawyers, prison employees, etc. - you know, the people that create the laws. Long ago I might have considered that there might be some justification for these laws (or anywhere there's rules really), but nowadays when you wonder why "the way something is" is, it's easier to just assume someon…

I find it hard to believe that there's some sort of conspiracy to keep police, lawyers, and prisons funded via laws against selling drugs. Have you considered that these laws are still in place simply because it's the status quo? Politicians voting on laws and drafting new ones must ultimately answer to their constituents. While the vast majority of things fly under the radar, "pro-drug" support is enough of a charge…

Have you considered that these laws are still in place simply because it's the status quo?

It's more than that. The biggest opponents to the legal pot movement in CA this year are the police and prison guard unions.

And the ads those orgs are running are just FUD. In some cases, they are outright lies. Actually, in most cases, they are outright lies.

Those lies are seen by a lot of people are are the basis of Americans not supporting drug legalization.

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#129

Post by CPAhem » Thu, Jul 14, 2016, 9:54 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #43

dopamean wrote: post #11

Any time I read anything about the illegal drug trade I am struck by how much the industry would change if all drugs were legalized everywhere. So much effort is expended to keep things hidden from law enforcement and other criminals that it adds an incredible amount of friction to the purchasing process for the purchaser and the seller. From the buyer's perspective you now have to go into business with some often un…

> It's really a shitty experience for everyone involved. However, it creates many thousands of very well paid jobs for police, lawyers, prison employees, etc. - you know, the people that create the laws. Long ago I might have considered that there might be some justification for these laws (or anywhere there's rules really), but nowadays when you wonder why "the way something is" is, it's easier to just assume someon…

>However, it creates many thousands of very well paid jobs for police, lawyers, prison employees, etc

Not to mention customs officials. In Australia recently 300 customs officials were under investigation for corruption, getting paid to allow drugs into the country.

Re: Shedding light on the dark web

#130

Post by logfromblammo » Thu, Jul 14, 2016, 10:05 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #102

Swizec wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let's assume that we legalize alcohol for everyone: can I now buy beer and whisky and absinthe and whatnot complete with glasses from 7-Eleven? Are we seriously proposing that people in masses would be able to responsibly consume these substances. If ther is doubt, maybe we add, similar to obtaining a drivers license, a class of responsible alcohol use for kids to their high school curriculum. A 12-step program fr…

Alcohol is the fourth largest cause of preventable deaths in the U.S. each year. Given that it's chemically addicting and steeped in cultural history, I'm all for the Pandora's box approach of scratching it off as a loss and leaving it. We don't need more dangerous, chemically-addictive substances mass introduced to the public. At some point the priority of an individual's freedom to abuse substances and harm their s…

I wonder how alcohol ranks as a cause of preventable pregnancies. Does that count as an offset against its death rate?

If you toss alcohol, you will need to substitute some other mode of social interaction with fewer or less dangerous chemicals that will get folks out of the house and meeting new people. There are many, many people out there today who never would have existed if at least one of their ancestors had never become drunk on ethanol.

You can't just chuck it without first supplanting it from all the niches it may currently fill.