Dallas Police Used Robot with Bomb to Kill Ambush Suspect: Mayor • Hacker News Board

Re: Dallas Police Used Robot with Bomb to Kill Ambush Suspect: Mayor

#121

Post by EdHominem » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 8:24 PM UTC

anonymousguy wrote: post #94

maxerickson wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is their mood at all relevant? They are professionals whose job is to be on the right side of the line that divides appropriate use of force from inappropriate use of force. Asking anything less than that from them is basically discarding the idea that we live in a civilized society.

In situations like this mood is extremely relevant. Its what separates the disciplined professional from people who whine and second guess things. What many people don't understand is that a wrong decision is better than no decision at all. The world isn't going to wait for you to call an assembly and have a cordial discussion about how to delicately make a possibly-suicidal suspect feel happy. It sure as hell isn't…

> What many people don't understand is that a wrong decision is better than no decision at all.

100% wrong. That reasoning justifies all decisions.

This is what's wrong with our institutional thinking these days.

> This is an active shooter incident.

This stopped being an active shooter situation when they pinned him down without hostages.

> he suspect is threatening to have explosives and claims to want to kill more people. The first order of business is to eliminate the threat.

Fatally wrong again. Eliminating the threat would involve eliminating the bombs, not just the gun.

If they truly believed there were bombs they'd have had more motive to question the shooter, not less, because a single missed bomb could sit for days until triggered inadvertently.

Re: Dallas Police Used Robot with Bomb to Kill Ambush Suspect: Mayor

#122

Post by EdHominem » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 8:27 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #101

maxerickson wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't explain how mood should inform operational doctrine. My claim is that it should not.

You misread "mood". "In a guessing mood" is another way of saying "Willing to take time to consider all options." Operational doctrine here suggests that, with active shooter, you prioritize removing the shooter once negotiations have failed. The "probably would have" the poster is referencing is a what-if they didn't have time for.

> with active shooter, you prioritize removing the shooter [...]

... to save hostages, of which there weren't any.

Except if he'd had planted bombs on a deadman switch, which would have been triggered by taking him out.

They're lucky he was lying. Not smart, not skilled, lucky.

Re: Dallas Police Used Robot with Bomb to Kill Ambush Suspect: Mayor

#123

Post by angersock » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 3:55 AM UTC

EdHominem wrote: post #122

angersock wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misread "mood". "In a guessing mood" is another way of saying "Willing to take time to consider all options." Operational doctrine here suggests that, with active shooter, you prioritize removing the shooter once negotiations have failed. The "probably would have" the poster is referencing is a what-if they didn't have time for.

> with active shooter, you prioritize removing the shooter [...] ... to save hostages, of which there weren't any. Except if he'd had planted bombs on a deadman switch, which would have been triggered by taking him out. They're lucky he was lying. Not smart, not skilled, lucky.

And to save officers.

Re: Dallas Police Used Robot with Bomb to Kill Ambush Suspect: Mayor

#124

Post by 2sad2bbad » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 5:52 AM UTC

The Dallas police keep emphasizing it is the first time they used a robot to kill someone in order to avoid talking about the elephant in the room. I accept that it may be the first time they used a robot as a delivery vehicle of the C4 (highly explosive bomb material). I do not appreciate, however, them not admitting to the previous bombing of the organization known as "Move", here in Philadelphia. They dropped the C4 bomb from the air. Dallas and Philly would make it two times, that I know about. I suspect that before they allow that area where they killed that black man in Dallas to be seen by the public , they will have all kinds of construction crews in to clean up the destruction for the cover-up. I suspect the news media and law enforcement agencies and the like are complaicent in the cover-up, possibly for peace sake. I don't feel peace can be accomplished with half truths, though. I do not know of C4 even being used on the terrorists in the United States! A robot, a helicopter...no matter how it was delivered, C4 was only used 2 times and it was used on black men, black women, and black children. Here in Philadelphia you could smell the houses burning for miles. I really do appreciate ethical police. I mourn the loss of all innocent parties. I hope everyone makes it home to their loved ones. However, I hope we can soon be done with this David Brown show. He is not special. I don't think anyone who could authorize a kill by the use of C4, outside of a war zone, no matter how it is delivered, is not special at all... or brave; (Nor was the shooter special or brave.) Speaking of "poor poor" David Brown, I will say this about any job that deals with the public, everybody is not suited for every job. If some police feel the job they signed up for puts too many demands on them within the community they serve for a mere 44,000 or so a year, perhaps that is not the fit for that person and they should quit as soon as possible. Many other people have left better jobs for less.

Re: Dallas Police Used Robot with Bomb to Kill Ambush Suspect: Mayor

#125

Post by staunch » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 4:10 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #114

staunch wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a matter of context. You're referring to the slang usage. Some programmers also call non-technical people "civilians" too. It's a way to refer to "other" people than those of your group. Irregardless of how common it is with cops, it's still inaccurate. It makes just as much logical and legal sense to refer to programmers as non-civilians as it does to refer to civil law enforcement as non-civilians.

> It's not a matter of context. You're referring to the slang usage. Some programmers also call non-technical people "civilians" too. It's a way to refer to "other" people than those of your group. That's not the slang usage. That is the informal usage. And that is not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the formal usage of the term civilian, which according to numerous dictionaries [1] means someone not a member…

Name a single way that municipal police in the U.S. are not civilians. Is there any any legal or technical basis for referring to police as anything other than civilians?

If not, then of course the word is being misused. Dictionaries simply update their definitions to reflect common usage, however wrong.

Re: Dallas Police Used Robot with Bomb to Kill Ambush Suspect: Mayor

#126

Post by EdHominem » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 4:53 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #123

EdHominem wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with active shooter, you prioritize removing the shooter [...] ... to save hostages, of which there weren't any. Except if he'd had planted bombs on a deadman switch, which would have been triggered by taking him out. They're lucky he was lying. Not smart, not skilled, lucky.

And to save officers .

Not true. The officers weren't in danger at that time. He was hemmed in, and bleeding.

They killed him because they were mad and didn't care about the consequences (unfound bombs) to civilians.

Re: Dallas Police Used Robot with Bomb to Kill Ambush Suspect: Mayor

#127

Post by poof131 » Wed, Jul 13, 2016, 6:02 PM UTC

haslhuny wrote: post #119

poof131 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. While using a lethal robot is scary, it is really no different than giving a police sniper the okay for a shot. Except in this case there was no possibility of a sniper shot. This individual was likely well trained. He fires and maneuvers. He has a good stance and chooses targets. He is clearly an accurate shot. He is aggressive and circles his target. He is calm under fire. [1] His skill level is damn scary…

The point is that the police could have waited. They proactively murdered this man for no reason at that point in the situation. If this individual was white, Hispanic or even Muslim... they would have waited.

They could have waited for him to escape through the ventilation systems and kill more people? They could have waited for him to detonate the entire building and bring it down on everybody’s head, with more police inside and media watching? Either are possibilities they could have waited for and everyone would be second guessing those scenarios just like people are second guessing this one now. I don’t like the idea of robot bombs killing people, but when someone is shooting at police and not negotiating, I do support them taking out the threat and wouldn’t call it murder. Self-defense or defending innocents are probably better terms. And your statement that they would have waited if he was a different race is ridiculous. So you know better what would have happened than the african american chief of the Dallas police? You’re not helping the situation in this country by making these uninformed statements.

Re: Dallas Police Used Robot with Bomb to Kill Ambush Suspect: Mayor

#128

Post by someguydave » Thu, Jul 14, 2016, 2:28 AM UTC

poof131 wrote: post #127

haslhuny wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that the police could have waited. They proactively murdered this man for no reason at that point in the situation. If this individual was white, Hispanic or even Muslim... they would have waited.

They could have waited for him to escape through the ventilation systems and kill more people? They could have waited for him to detonate the entire building and bring it down on everybody’s head, with more police inside and media watching? Either are possibilities they could have waited for and everyone would be second guessing those scenarios just like people are second guessing this one now. I don’t like the idea…

There is a point when you present such a threat to public safety that a military solution is required. Hardened criminals who are obviously on a murder spree have given up their right to due process. If he had peacefully surrendered he would have had a trial and his due process (and hopefully hanged for his crimes).