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Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

economist.com

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Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#231

Post by ZenoArrow »

blahi wrote: post #230
ZenoArrow wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "So in the end people acted against their self-interest. Because they don't know what their interest is and because politicians tricked them." You fix that by having a more informed population. You can do this in multiple ways, but primarily the fight is in breaking the stranglehold of the mass media by popularising news outlets with more in-depth and clear analyses of the issues we face. It's not an impossible fig…

Oh, so people who pick apart your flawed plans should just shut the fuck up and let you agitate for a global revolution? Because that's what you are doing. You did not argue for better education. You argued for a change in the financial system. One that requires a massive change in people's reasoning abilities in order to work out as advertised. "Oh hey guys, let's do this very cool thing where we will all live way b…

> "Oh, so people who pick apart your flawed plans should just shut the fuck up and let you agitate for a global revolution?"

I'm all for debate, but if you were interested in debate before you wouldn't have dismissed it as 'impossible' without explanation. Just because you say something is impossible doesn't make it so, you have to elaborate on why. If you're interested in engaging in the implementation details now I'm all for a debate.

> "You did not argue for better education. You argued for a change in the financial system."

I argued for both. I argued for a change in the financial system, and as I elaborated on how I could see this come to pass, I argued for better education. To me there is no conflict, to have an effective democracy you need an informed populace, otherwise people are too easily swayed by demagoguery. If you think this represents a shift in my argument, I'd invite you to read my comment history, I have been clear with my position on how the mass media plays a big role in influencing the masses. Breaking through the misinformation spread by the mass media is an important prerequisite for societal change that benefits the many. In terms of how to break through media manipulation, I could go into implementation details if you're interested.

> "Because we have it very good now"

Maybe in your world, but economic inequality is an increasingly pressing issue, and one that needs to be addressed. Take a look at this story...

http://www.oxfam.org.uk/media-centre/press-releases/2016/01/...

If that is accurate, 62 people have the same level of wealth as half the population of the world. Do you recognise the types of problems that concentration of power can create?

Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#232

Post by eli_gottlieb »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #95
guelo wrote: post #24

It’s easy for Merkel to insist that Italy has to strictly follow EU rules since she doesn’t have to win an Italian election. The Euro just seems like a complete failure. Giant economies are limping along with 20% unemployment, unable to recover 8 years after the recession. In contrast the US has managed an OK recovery, now closing in on full employment. The problem is that each EU national leader is accountable only…

> "The only way it could work would be if Europe-wide economic policy were made by the European Parliament so that taxation and bank regulation would be made coherently across the continent by accountable representatives. But voters, probably correctly, want to maintain national control." There's a plan from the leaders of the EU for creating a Eurozone Treasury by 2025. http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-524…

Well, nothing written in that massive quote you've given mentions unemployment as a problem to be managed using fiscal policy, so I think that predicts how well it will really work out.

Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#233

Post by [deleted] »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #228
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just his policies on nationalisation are enough to put me off, some of us are old enough to remember what a disaster nationalised industries were in the past.

I'd recommend watching this documentary on the NHS if you can spare the time: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ultKvnw2h3Q It covers, amongst other things, how public services are mismanaged on purpose to make privatisation seem like progress. One of the sources of information it touches on is a book by the Conservative MP Oliver Letwin that lays out the approach taken for privitising public services, so it's not some f…

[deleted]

Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#234

Post by tonyedgecombe »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #228
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just his policies on nationalisation are enough to put me off, some of us are old enough to remember what a disaster nationalised industries were in the past.

I'd recommend watching this documentary on the NHS if you can spare the time: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ultKvnw2h3Q It covers, amongst other things, how public services are mismanaged on purpose to make privatisation seem like progress. One of the sources of information it touches on is a book by the Conservative MP Oliver Letwin that lays out the approach taken for privitising public services, so it's not some f…

Very interesting but Labour can't do anything about it if they can't get into government, which is the case all the while Corbyn is leader.

Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#235

Post by blahi »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #231
blahi wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, so people who pick apart your flawed plans should just shut the fuck up and let you agitate for a global revolution? Because that's what you are doing. You did not argue for better education. You argued for a change in the financial system. One that requires a massive change in people's reasoning abilities in order to work out as advertised. "Oh hey guys, let's do this very cool thing where we will all live way b…

> "Oh, so people who pick apart your flawed plans should just shut the fuck up and let you agitate for a global revolution?" I'm all for debate, but if you were interested in debate before you wouldn't have dismissed it as 'impossible' without explanation. Just because you say something is impossible doesn't make it so, you have to elaborate on why. If you're interested in engaging in the implementation details now I…

>I argued for both. I argued for a change in the financial system, and as I elaborated on how I could see this come to pass

But see, the education comes first. You don't promise people sunshine and rainbows and then give them a condition. They will not hear about the condition. They heard about the prize and all they hear is the prize. And this is how so many tin-foil hatters are bread, convinced of lizard people puppeteering the whole planet in their spare time. Bullshit like Zeigeist. Concatenations with half the facts missing. Straight to the conclusions. This is the route you take when you want to trick people, not when you want to educate them!

And no, I actually don't see the problem with income inequality. People in general are living better. I don't particularly care that Mark Zuckerberg has a million times more money then me. I will be able to send to send my son to the same university as his. So who cares and why?

Even if there are problems, you are curing a cold with surgery. it's all about risk/reward. And your ratio sucks. Big time.

Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#236

Post by ZenoArrow »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #234
ZenoArrow wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd recommend watching this documentary on the NHS if you can spare the time: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ultKvnw2h3Q It covers, amongst other things, how public services are mismanaged on purpose to make privatisation seem like progress. One of the sources of information it touches on is a book by the Conservative MP Oliver Letwin that lays out the approach taken for privitising public services, so it's not some f…

Very interesting but Labour can't do anything about it if they can't get into government, which is the case all the while Corbyn is leader.

Sorry, I don't understand. Here's my summary of our current conversation.

1. You say Corbyn can't get elected.

2. I ask you why.

3. You imply that his views do not line up with what people want.

4. I ask you which of his views are out of touch with public opinion.

5. You suggest the main problem you have with his views is that he believes in re-nationalising, and you remember how badly public industries were run.

6. I provide evidence that public services were badly run on purpose in order to pave the way for privatisation.

7. You reply that it's interesting but it's immaterial because Corbyn can't get elected.

If I've misunderstood something of this conversation in your opinion, please clarify what that is.

I personally don't see the problem with re-nationalising the railways in the UK (to give one example of a Corbyn policy), especially if the incentive to run them poorly on purpose is taken away (i.e. not having a government that's interested in privatising it). The rail service in the UK has become vastly overpriced (compared with other developed nations) since the railways were privatised. Delays and cancellations are still commonplace too. I don't see what great benefits the privatisation of the the UK rail system has brought us.

Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#237

Post by ZenoArrow »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #232
ZenoArrow wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The only way it could work would be if Europe-wide economic policy were made by the European Parliament so that taxation and bank regulation would be made coherently across the continent by accountable representatives. But voters, probably correctly, want to maintain national control." There's a plan from the leaders of the EU for creating a Eurozone Treasury by 2025. http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-524…

Well, nothing written in that massive quote you've given mentions unemployment as a problem to be managed using fiscal policy, so I think that predicts how well it will really work out.

Aside from employing some public sector workers, governments don't fix high unemployment directly, they can only do so indirectly (by promoting stronger competition in the marketplace). Therefore, I don't find it surprising that unemployment isn't directly named in the summary I provided (though it may be mentioned in the full Five Presidents report, I haven't read the whole thing).

Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#238

Post by ZenoArrow »

blahi wrote: post #235
ZenoArrow wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Oh, so people who pick apart your flawed plans should just shut the fuck up and let you agitate for a global revolution?" I'm all for debate, but if you were interested in debate before you wouldn't have dismissed it as 'impossible' without explanation. Just because you say something is impossible doesn't make it so, you have to elaborate on why. If you're interested in engaging in the implementation details now I…

>I argued for both. I argued for a change in the financial system, and as I elaborated on how I could see this come to pass But see, the education comes first. You don't promise people sunshine and rainbows and then give them a condition. They will not hear about the condition. They heard about the prize and all they hear is the prize. And this is how so many tin-foil hatters are bread, convinced of lizard people pup…

Education of the masses comes first, but there's no problem in an individual who has researched an issue discussing it before the education of the masses has taken place.

As for your claim that you don't see the problems that come from income inequality, the rich have two main advantages:

1. They can more easily buy influence in government to have legislation passed that favours them over others.

2. They can take greater control of material assets, and alter the power dynamic in a market.

Do you see these as problems?

Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#239

Post by blahi »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #231
blahi wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, so people who pick apart your flawed plans should just shut the fuck up and let you agitate for a global revolution? Because that's what you are doing. You did not argue for better education. You argued for a change in the financial system. One that requires a massive change in people's reasoning abilities in order to work out as advertised. "Oh hey guys, let's do this very cool thing where we will all live way b…

> "Oh, so people who pick apart your flawed plans should just shut the fuck up and let you agitate for a global revolution?" I'm all for debate, but if you were interested in debate before you wouldn't have dismissed it as 'impossible' without explanation. Just because you say something is impossible doesn't make it so, you have to elaborate on why. If you're interested in engaging in the implementation details now I…

So you ask for evidence about painfully obvious things, but you feel like you can make unsubstantiated claims when there is evidence that directly contradicts those claims? Even when I addressed them already?

All the rich people were against Brexit but it still happened, didn't it? There is no one monolithic lizard people cabal that is out there to get you. There are many, many different groups with competing interests and opinions. This is why capitalism has been so good and has brought us so much prosperity. Real power cannot be usurped. Everybody competes. And this is why I cast doubt on your political acumen. You seem to have 0 consideration for competing interests and opinions. In your head everything happens in a vacuum and all will be OK if everybody was just a little bit more like you. Well, that's not going to happen. You can pout and scream unjustice and agitate people with beautiful promises and at the end of the day you will either have accomplished nothing or you will have crashed the best period in human history.

The kind of change you want requires a gradual improvement, not a revolution. Shift in the generations to come, not asking people to make a massive jump in their reasoning RIGHT NOW. And for all we know, the generations to come have a shift in their thinking. There's evidence for that. Milenials have a very different value chain the generations before them.

Re: Italy’s teetering banks will be Europe’s next crisis

#240

Post by kybernetikos »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #23
s17tnet wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole western bank system is a confidence trick. Never head off fractional-reserve ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking

It's worse than just fractional reserve banking. The vast majority of the money supply is based off debt. Would recommend watching the 4 minute introduction on the Positive Money homepage for a quick overview of the current situation with money creation: http://positivemoney.org/

> The vast majority of the money supply is based off debt.

That's because of the money supply measure you choose, so it's a pretty meaningless thing to complain about.

M0 for example is a measure of the money supply that is not based off debt. Most of the other measures include demand deposits in fractional reserve banks which are primarily debt.

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