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Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

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Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#31

Post by lucb1e »

cloakandswagger wrote: post #14

> "No force was detected on the steering wheel for over two minutes after autosteer was engaged," said Tesla, which added that it can detect even a very small amount of force, such as one hand resting on the wheel." Why doesn't the "autopilot" turn off if no hands are detected on the wheel?

Well the whole autopilot feature is silly if you need to keep your hands on the wheel. Then you might as well steer yourself, or am I missing something? (I don't know details about this feature, I just know it steers automatically on highways.)

Until full driver attention is no longer needed, enabling "autopilot" and saying in the manual "PS. you still need to stay as alert as you normally would and keep your hands on the wheel" (i.e. no benefits from having this feature) is just asking for accidents.

Imagine, as you suggest, it does turn off when there's no hand on the wheel. People are just going to rest a hand on it and still not pay attention. What's the next step, tracking people's eyes? Or shall we just not enable autopilot in the first place, if it can't do its only job?

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#32

Post by satysin »

taneq wrote: post #5

> "As road conditions became increasingly uncertain, the vehicle again alerted the driver to put his hands on the wheel," said Tesla. "He did not do so and shortly thereafter the vehicle collided with a post on the edge of the roadway." If the autopilot's confidence was dropping that rapidly, why did it not slow the vehicle? If it hits zero confidence it should halt completely until the driver restarts the car in man…

There is not a simple, one-size-fits-all solution to this. Ideally if AP confidence drops to a critical level what you want is for the AP to safely remove the car from the road however how and when do you do that for every possible situation that can be encountered on the roads? At the end of the day the driver has to take responsibility and take over the controls like it asks.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#33

Post by dominotw »

Bromskloss wrote: post #16
the_common_man wrote: post #7

Nobody reads manuals and follows instructions . I feel Tesla is going to learn this lesson that hard way. From the article: "We specifically advise against its use at high speeds on undivided roads," it said. Tesla states clearly in its owner's manual that drivers should stay alert and keep their hands on the wheel to avoid accidents when the Autopilot feature is engaged.

> drivers should stay alert and keep their hands on the wheel What is then the point of having an autopilot?

you don't have to brake .

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#34

Post by CaptSpify »

Bromskloss wrote: post #16
the_common_man wrote: post #7

Nobody reads manuals and follows instructions . I feel Tesla is going to learn this lesson that hard way. From the article: "We specifically advise against its use at high speeds on undivided roads," it said. Tesla states clearly in its owner's manual that drivers should stay alert and keep their hands on the wheel to avoid accidents when the Autopilot feature is engaged.

> drivers should stay alert and keep their hands on the wheel What is then the point of having an autopilot?

And this is why I don't think they should call it "autopilot". The name is misleading, imo

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#35

Post by dragonwriter »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #26
taneq wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying it should gradually slow down as it gets more uncertain (just like you do in heavy rain as your visibility decreases), not that it should slam on the brakes with no warning. If gentle deceleration "causes" an accident then the problem is with the attitude and behaviour of the following vehicle, not with the deceleration.

That's the problem though: if its lost confidence, you might be gradually slowing down into a concrete median. You must ensure that the autopilot has enough confidence (while said confidence is diminishing quickly) to continue in the path it chooses safely between current speed and 0. Pretend we're in the car together. We're traveling at 70mph on a two lane road at night. I cover your eyes with my hands on a curvy ro…

> [...] you might be gradually slowing down into a concrete median.

Which seems to be less of a problem than not gradually slowing down as you run into the concrete median.

Just as a human driver would, a road vehicle self-driving system needs to act sensibly to mitigate risk if its confidence in its ability to safely operate in the conditions it finds itself is reduced, until and unless a human driver has resumed active control.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#36

Post by taneq »

danhak wrote: post #2

From the Article: > The driver in Montana was headed from Seattle to Yellowstone National Park when he crashed on a two-lane highway near Cardwell. ..."It's a winding road going through a canyon, with no shoulder" From the Tesla Owners Manual: > Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is primarily intended for driving on dry, straight roads, such as highways and freeways. ... > Autosteer is particularly unlikely to operate as i…

From real life:

* Real life people who aren't engineers don't read the manual and they don't read notification pop-ups.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#37

Post by yk »

taneq wrote: post #5

> "As road conditions became increasingly uncertain, the vehicle again alerted the driver to put his hands on the wheel," said Tesla. "He did not do so and shortly thereafter the vehicle collided with a post on the edge of the roadway." If the autopilot's confidence was dropping that rapidly, why did it not slow the vehicle? If it hits zero confidence it should halt completely until the driver restarts the car in man…

Thing is, standing still on a highway is also not a safe place to be. So the car needs to determine a safe-fail state on its own.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#38

Post by oconnore »

taneq wrote: post #5

> "As road conditions became increasingly uncertain, the vehicle again alerted the driver to put his hands on the wheel," said Tesla. "He did not do so and shortly thereafter the vehicle collided with a post on the edge of the roadway." If the autopilot's confidence was dropping that rapidly, why did it not slow the vehicle? If it hits zero confidence it should halt completely until the driver restarts the car in man…

Because this sort of auto->manual transition of control does not work [1].

1: https://www.amazon.com/Our-Robots-Ourselves-Robotics-Autonom...

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#40

Post by toomuchtodo »

dragonwriter wrote: post #35
toomuchtodo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem though: if its lost confidence, you might be gradually slowing down into a concrete median. You must ensure that the autopilot has enough confidence (while said confidence is diminishing quickly) to continue in the path it chooses safely between current speed and 0. Pretend we're in the car together. We're traveling at 70mph on a two lane road at night. I cover your eyes with my hands on a curvy ro…

> [...] you might be gradually slowing down into a concrete median. Which seems to be less of a problem than not gradually slowing down as you run into the concrete median. Just as a human driver would, a road vehicle self-driving system needs to act sensibly to mitigate risk if its confidence in its ability to safely operate in the conditions it finds itself is reduced, until and unless a human driver has resumed ac…

I think we agree, its simply in the execution. Why didn't the vehicle slow down when it lost confidence? Was it software? Could the ultrasound sensors and/or MobileEye camera not see the concrete median at night?
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