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How we're scammed into eating phony food

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Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#451
post #163
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is tea distinguished by its terroir (like wine), or is it just a matter of cultivars (like bananas)? I.e. is Sri Lankan "Darjeeling" blind-taste-test-equivalent to Darjeeling from Darjeeling? I can support a concept of "growing regions" for foods where the growing region matters ; but otherwise, it's just bald monopolism.

It's brand, simply. If you produce Coca Cola in a pepsi factory, does it matter ? The fact is, for many of these products, formal brand recognition did not exist back when the production tradition started. Therefore, when you buy Gouda, or Roquefort, or Bordeaux wine, you buy with the understanding that you're buying the real deal, but there's no brand per se. With the development of mass consumption and internationa…

Brands and growing regions are both "natural kinds", insofar as they're both things you would expect to evolve from many businesses selling a (complex) commodity from the same region, sometimes competing, sometimes colluding. They both make sense, and can both be used together. But they shouldn't be conflated.

Brands are organizational signifiers. They speak of privately-held organizational knowledge and experience brought-to-bear.

A growing region, meanwhile, is a signifier for natural local factors of the region that defy replication. Anyone operating an organization in that region will reap some of the benefits of that region; even Starbucks coffee beans, if grown in Brazil, would contain some Brazilian terroir.

IP rights protect brands, because brands are inherently rivalrous things that can be bought and protected at the organizational level, like other IP rights. IP rights do not protect growing regions, because growing regions are not inherently rivalrous; anyone can "sneak into" the appropriate region (buying up land previously used for non-growing purposes, etc.) and found a new organization with a claim to the growing region.

But sometimes, "growing regions" are also (secretly) the results of colluding organizations of humans, rather than natural factors. Champagne isn't bubbly because of anything the Champagne area of France does to it. It's a long-standing agreement between the organizations that operate in the region to make it that way.

And that is a brand. But it's a brand that exists on the "wrong level", so to speak; it's a brand held in a sort of commons that any organization is free to enter. Nobody has stewardship over such a brand.

It makes perfect sense for Champagne to be a brand—but it makes no sense for Champagne the growing region to be the brand. It would be much more sensible to have the brand exist at the human level: to call together all the organizations that are currently dubbed "Champagne growers", and tell them that they now own equity stakes in a trust that in turn owns the IP rights to the trademark "champagne."

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> US food practices would be considered similar to accepting fake iphones, mcD's or Coca-Cola

Ah, but I would accept those things! If, and only if, they were structurally identical to the real ones.

"Ghost shift" products[1] are indistinguishable from the real thing—because they are the real thing. They're produced in the same factories, by the same people, with the same raw inputs. It's just that they're not being produced toward the revenue of the contracted client who submitted the production spec. So they're "knock-offs." But they're structurally identical.

I think most people, if told that they could either buy an iPhone; or buy a "myPhone" that's made of all the same components in the same layout with the same tolerances as a real iPhonee (and, as such, runs iOS just fine), but for $200 less... would leap to buy the "myPhone." Everyone who wasn't, in fact, paying a premium for the Veblen-good nature of an expensive-product-as-status-symbol, would take the myPhone.

"Knock-off" has a negative connotation because many things can't be knocked off perfectly. But many other things can. The whole issue with media piracy is the fact that digital media can be knocked off perfectly. Many inorganic products (Coca-Cola) can be spectroscopically picked apart and cloned (though likely using an original, white-box-engineered process) to tolerances where nobody can discern the two. And organic products often have enough intra-batch variation that even with identical cultivars, differences in terroir between two crops grown half-way across the world from one-another can't be picked out from the noise of the inherent peculiarities of each individual specimen.

Growing regions are important precisely in the cases where knock-offs of things from that region won't have the qualities that the "authentic" things from that region have. That's the situation where knowing the growing region of the thing gives you useful information to influence your purchase. Otherwise, growing regions are just misbehaving, wrong-level brands—and leaky abstractions, as can be seen in the Italian olive-oil example.

[1] http://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive...

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And one more thought:

Growing regions are becoming outmoded, displaced by brands. Have you tried to buy an apple lately? There are now[2] a thousand "varieties" of apple, different at every store—because those "varieties" are now simply the brands of apple-growers, instead of cultivars of apple or even growing regions for apples.

[2] http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/05/27/410085320/episo...

Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What foods have you tried in the UK, that turned out to be bad? Perhaps I can recommend different restaurants for you to try.

First of all, not talking about Indian, Chinese or whatever restaurants in the UK. Talking solely about the British cooking tradition. Second, my point is not that I had some pot roast or fish and chips that were "bad" -- as in bad cooking (although you get that too a lot). My point was that even cooked the best way, they are nothing to write home about compared to other national cuisines and their dishes.

"Talking solely about the British cooking tradition."

Then you're talking about food which:

- Is a very small proportion of all food consumed in the UK

- Is the food least likely to be affected by TTIP (as it's traditional, many/all of the ingredients are readily available and don't need to be imported)

So, regardless of how you or I feel about traditional British cuisine, it has little to do with the comment to which you replied (which commented on the potential impact of TTIP).

Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#453
post #443
post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out Costco. Their brand is not only cheap, but one of the few that are real. The price went up since 2010, but it is still around $10/l. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/5-things-you-should-buy-at-costc...

The articles I've read (your's included) explicitly pointed out Costco's Organic olive oil. Costco also sells a non-Organic version that's cheaper but I haven't seen anyone say either way if it's actually EVOO.

FWIW, having bought a bottle of the non-organic EVOO at Costco today, I can say it is labeled as if it is real.

Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best steak I've ever had in my life was at Rockpool in Melbourne. It has ruined me. I can't really order steak and enjoy it anywhere else anymore.

Hah, I will have to try it. They carry Wagyu steaks from a notable local Victorian farmer, right?

I dont know actually. Just go and get the grain fed. You wont regret it. Also their mac and cheese is pretty amazing. Really everything is.

Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pizza is a good key here in my mind because if you consider what americans call 'deep dish' pizza - the rest of the world calls that a flan/quiche/tart/pie. And then there is the insistence on calling all pizzas, 'pizza pie'. Pizza and Pie are two different foods, with very little in common besides dough and an oven. > superior take on the style. Im sure there are people who would tell me the same about american beer…

> american beer Is superior to almost all other beer, aside from a few outliers, such as the stuff the Trappist monks produce. It's all subjective though, because what you (general you) think tastes good, tastes like watered down swill to my taste buds, or just nasty (Czech beer for instance). Our cheeses are rather good too, though not the pre-packed brand name stuff. Really, the thing is, the US is huge, and there…

You're complaining about what you assume is compared, and then doing the same thing.

You admit american mass-produced products are terrible, compared to their international equivalents, and then go on to claim that US 'hand crafted' products are better than the mass-produced products of other countries.

Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#456

I see a lot of Americans claiming that respecting origin naming laws is "stupid". Im guessing this is partly the general "disrupt" mentality At work, and partly because based on your bread, beer and cheese, you clearly have long ago "evolved" to have no tastebuds. Having seen what Americans insist on calling pizza, I can't imagine what you lot would do to other foods.

Oh come on, I'm tired of hearing about US beer from people that don't drink real US beer. Yeah, the domestic big seller beers like Budweiser are pretty crap, but there is an incredible craft beer scene. Look at brewers like Stillwater and Dark Horse, or even bigger ones like Sierra Nevada. Even European brewers like Evil Twin now have US based breweries.

Other countries have excellent small-scale beer producers too. But some of them also have quite good mass-produced beers too, which is my entire point.

Like someone else, you're trying to compare American small-scale products against mass-produced international goods, as if other countries don't also have very good small-scale producers.

Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a farmer - but the wife does a fair bit of reading on animal welfare and organic produce. We've quite often thought of sourcing our meat & poultry from the neighborhood farm as opposed to the stock "organic" that you get at the supermarkets. This article and several I read probably just helps me make that decision faster. I generally use whole foods today - level 4 rating on the chicken & 100% grass fed on my mea…

Eatwild is a great resource, we know them well. You absolutely need a deep freezer if you want to buy local meat. Most producers, us included, sell frozen cuts only -- managing inventory of non-frozen meat would be way too hectic. Deep freezers are only like 200 bucks at Costco. Assuming you have space for one in your home, they're also great for making sauces and whatnot in bulk. Also highly recommend a cryovac kit.…

> Assuming you have space for one in your home

When my wife and I were first married we lived in an impossibly small efficiency and still made room for a chest freezer because of the tremendous efficiencies in food storage it provided for - it was something like $200 on sale at Costco. We still have it, 15 years later doing good service for us and payed for itself many times over.

Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#458
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I quite liked the Dutch tomatoes that we got in Germany. I understand they are grown in greenhouses?

You're not the only one: http://www.hortidaily.com/article/20364/Germany-Only-Dutch-t...

Ha, I was about to mention Spanish tomatoes being worse, but decided against it.

Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#459
post #451
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's brand, simply. If you produce Coca Cola in a pepsi factory, does it matter ? The fact is, for many of these products, formal brand recognition did not exist back when the production tradition started. Therefore, when you buy Gouda, or Roquefort, or Bordeaux wine, you buy with the understanding that you're buying the real deal, but there's no brand per se. With the development of mass consumption and internationa…

Brands and growing regions are both "natural kinds", insofar as they're both things you would expect to evolve from many businesses selling a (complex) commodity from the same region, sometimes competing, sometimes colluding. They both make sense, and can both be used together. But they shouldn't be conflated. Brands are organizational signifiers. They speak of privately-held organizational knowledge and experience b…

> And that is a brand. But it's a brand that exists on the "wrong level", so to speak; it's a brand held in a sort of commons that any organization is free to enter. Nobody has stewardship over such a brand.

How is that a "wrong level" ? You're creating a replicability issue to strip part of the products of their rights to brand recognition.

> I think most people, if told that they could either buy an iPhone; or buy a "myPhone"

That would be a new brand, though. The question is whether this new myPhone producer be able to market his products under the brand iPhones. Because that's what you're advocating if you're offering to let people produce "champagne" everywhere, for instance. As a matter of fact, when you say :

> Brands and growing regions are both "natural kinds", insofar as they're both things you would expect to evolve from many businesses selling a (complex) commodity from the same region

I feel you're misled. Growing region recognition is mostly about grandfathering older products, which emerged in an environment where branding was irrelevant, into modern business practices. You don't see it as much now, because everyone brands their products nowadays (e.g. you don't see Silicon Valley software, or Rust Belt autos).

Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#460
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I buy Pasture Raised eggs from Whole Foods, about $6-$8 per dozen. Expensive but the only eggs I've found in the US with actual orange yolks like I found overseas. Even the farmers markets here disappoint. Pale yellow yolks are a very bad sign.

Pale yolks mean little. It just means the farmer added a different colouring agent. http://blog.chickenwaterer.com/2013/03/influencing-egg-yolk-...

That's not quite true. What all your sources say, is that it is influenced by chicken feed. Specifically "the amount and type of carotenoids the chicken consumes."

You can argue that it doesn't matter what chickens eat, and you could win. But I'd wager that to a great many people the quality of food does matter.

There is the spurious matter of the nutritional quality of the eggs as discussed here http://www.thekitchn.com/what-does-egg-yolk-color-actually-m...

"Some studies have shown, however, that eggs from pasture-raised hens can have more omega-3s and vitamins but less cholesterol due to healthier, more natural feed."

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