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The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

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Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#121

Post by adventured »

jazzyk wrote: post #116
adventured wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about: America: one of the highest median household disposable incomes on earth. 25% higher than Norway, 30% higher than Germany and 50% higher than Sweden. America: owner of 45% of all global private wealth. America: half the unemployment rate of the EU and Eurozone. America: a higher median income than Finland, with half the unemployment rate. Finland I'll note has been in a soft-depression for nearly a decade,…

>America: one of the highest median household disposable incomes on earth. 25% higher than Norway, 30% higher than Germany and 50% higher than Sweden. Careful here... You need to subtract: - cost of health care (even if you are a W-2 employee, you still have to pay, typically 30% of the cost, self-employed people may end up $25K/year for a family of 4) - cost of higher education - $250K/child for private college, $!2…

> cost of higher education - $250K/child for private college, $!20K/child state college

US households have better balance sheets than most highly developed European nations. So that's obviously not making the impact that people would like to claim it is. The median student loan for all people with student loans, is a mere $13,000.

> cost of health care

I agree, that's why the US has such low taxes on the middle class compared to most of Europe. However, the median US household has $15,000 more in disposable income than for example Sweden. That's a dramatic sum, that can easily cover health insurance - and in fact enables the US to be the vast consumer engine that it is. Simultaneously the median household net worth is higher in the US than Sweden or Germany.

As a significant counter point, a vast number of Americans are receiving compensation at their jobs in the way of health insurance coverage. That isn't counted at all in the US disposable income numbers and it's an extremely large number financially.

> additional taxes, like real-estate, excise taxes

That's a rather ridiculous inclusion. Most of Europe is overflowing with similar taxes, including very high VAT taxes.

> hidden taxes: telecom, airport/FAA (sometimes half of the price of the ticket)

Those referenced costs are comically trivial compared to the extreme disposable income gap in question between the US and most European nations.

> absurd real-estate prices (on the coasts

That's a pretty narrow example. Real estate costs are not absurd along most of the US coast in fact. South Carolina, Oregon, Georgia, Florida, Maine, Virginia, North Carolina, half of California, most of Washington - all of those are perfectly reasonable for the most part (most of Florida for example is not absurdly priced).

Unlike in Europe, you can possess an extremely high standard of living in the majority of the country by just avoiding half a dozen cities. Want to move to Boise Idaho? You can have a household disposable income higher than Sweden, with real estate costs 25% that of Sweden. In Europe, you can't just choose to move to Portugal, much less Czech, much less Bulgaria, and expect to have an income as high as in Germany or Sweden, in order to take advantage of lower cost real estate.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#122

Post by jazzyk »

jomamaxx wrote: post #6
robert_foss wrote: post #2

The American dream mantra as it is currently being regurgitated in America is little more than a cheap slogan at best and calculated lie at worst. What it is said to represent are qualities like social mobility in which America ranks amongst the very worst of the other 48 developed nations.

False. 'Social Mobility' cannot be compared between USA and small Euro nations. 'Social Mobility' within Denmark, a country smaller than Los Angeles, is pretty good. What if you compared 'Social Mobility' across the EU. Do you think that poor people in Croatia, Sicily and Greece are 'mobilizing' up past the Swedish middle class? No. Also - America has large ethnic groups. America is really 5 nations: Europeans, Asian…

I don't have the link handy, but The Economist had a cover story a while ago about how Europe (Nordics in particular) has now much higher social mobility than the US.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#123

Post by drabiega »

adventured wrote: post #110
dilann wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US is more like Russia by the gini. Multi-nationality is not unique to the US.

And the reason the gini is a bad joke: the median US standard of living is four to five times that of Russia.

That's not the point of the Gini index. You could use this logic on anything, because you're just saying that it doesn't measure something that it doesn't measure.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#124

Post by nkurz »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #73
vasilipupkin wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is just really not the case in the US. Top universities have need blind admissions - they will subsidize for you to attend. There are in state tuition universities that are affordable, there are grants, scholarships, etc. Percentage of Americans with college degrees is really not any lower than in Europe

Yes. Just about everybody at the elite schools (e.g., Harvard) gets a significant amount of financial aid.

That's misleading. While it's over half, and while those to do receive aid receive a substantial amount, it's very far from "about everybody":

Undergraduate Cost And Financial Aid

Families with students on scholarship pay an average of $11,500 annually toward the cost of a Harvard education. More than 65 percent of Harvard College students receive scholarship aid, and the average grant this year is $46,000.

http://www.harvard.edu/about-harvard/harvard-glance

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#125

Post by emp_zealoth »

clarry wrote: post #80
sotojuan wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered how the people that live there feel about the constant "I wish we were like them!".

Well, as someone whose life in .fi hasn't been so terribly great so far, I find the hype a bit irritating. Everything is so amazing, except for those for whom it isn't. Opportunities certainly aren't equal. "The Nordic approach of basic universal social policies—that allow everyone to fulfill their potential, allow everyone to work, allow true equality of opportunity" is just bull. And just like a lot of other Europe…

Eh, today I learned that one finnish person that played with us on the internet might have commited suicide sometimes in the past year. The nordic countries are definitely less of a paradise the hypetrain makes them

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#126

Post by drabiega »

sremani wrote: post #16

Why so must fascination about a homogeneous society that has population of City of Houston? I will not take some of these articles of Scandinavian fetish any seriously any more.

I don't want to leap to conclusions, but this argument always seems like a dog whistle to me. What is it about cultural heterogeneity that you think would make this sort of a model unsustainable?

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#127

Post by dragonwriter »

adventured wrote: post #121
jazzyk wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>America: one of the highest median household disposable incomes on earth. 25% higher than Norway, 30% higher than Germany and 50% higher than Sweden. Careful here... You need to subtract: - cost of health care (even if you are a W-2 employee, you still have to pay, typically 30% of the cost, self-employed people may end up $25K/year for a family of 4) - cost of higher education - $250K/child for private college, $!2…

> cost of higher education - $250K/child for private college, $!20K/child state college US households have better balance sheets than most highly developed European nations. So that's obviously not making the impact that people would like to claim it is. The median student loan for all people with student loans, is a mere $13,000. > cost of health care I agree, that's why the US has such low taxes on the middle class…

> However, the median US household has $15,000 more in disposable income than for example Sweden. That's a dramatic sum, that can easily cover health insurance

Insurance? Sure. I mean, a young, single person pays a bit above $250 in CA for a plan that meets ACA "Bronze" criteria, which pays about 60% of total cost. So minimal health insurance for a household should be easily doable under $15K per year. OTOH, total health expenses for a household would probably bring you right up to that $15K number, eating up the entire difference.

And healthcare isn't the only place where the US fails to provide services that governments elsewhere in the developed world provide.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#128

Post by jomamaxx »

Retric wrote: post #18
jomamaxx wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I look at the US and see a system that seems designed to breed crime, poverty and prostitution." While at the same time producing the highest GDP per captia in the world, the most number of people with college education, and leadership in probably 80% of global industries? The US doesn't 'breed' anything - communities 'breed' themselves. I suggest the US could do a little better with the social safety net, and possi…

Well ignoring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... United Nations (2014)[6] lists US as 12th, which is not bad. But, has been falling for a while. Norway for example seems to be ahead by ~30% despite a huge safety net. Of course by PPP we seem to be stuck at ~25: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IMF_ranked_countries_b...

+ Luxembourg is not only a tax haven, it's also a major EU capital and EU employees pay no tax. Most 'workers' in Lux live outside the country in France, and drive in every day. Finally, it's 200K people. Brooklyn is 5x bigger than Lux.

PS I lived there.

+ Switzerland is also a tax haven, with 1/3 of all off-shore private wealth in the entire world sitting there, with taxes going to local citizens. And it's one of the most socially conservative places on Earth, very low taxes in some areas.

+ Qatar and Norway are tiny populations with massive amounts of Oil, and otherwise extremely inefficient business sectors. Of course I'm sure you're aware that Qatar is not in Europe :).

I lived in Europe and the US, there is no comparison as to where wealth is created. I like living in Europe much more than the US for a variety of reasons, but it's not a place for social mobility, or to create wealth. Not by a stretch.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#129

Post by Joof »

So many people talk about it in sheer numbers, but you know what sounds nice? Having time off to spend with your kids (as a man!), more balanced relationships and not worrying about healthcare if you get laid-off.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#130

Post by Daishiman »

adventured wrote: post #121
jazzyk wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>America: one of the highest median household disposable incomes on earth. 25% higher than Norway, 30% higher than Germany and 50% higher than Sweden. Careful here... You need to subtract: - cost of health care (even if you are a W-2 employee, you still have to pay, typically 30% of the cost, self-employed people may end up $25K/year for a family of 4) - cost of higher education - $250K/child for private college, $!2…

> cost of higher education - $250K/child for private college, $!20K/child state college US households have better balance sheets than most highly developed European nations. So that's obviously not making the impact that people would like to claim it is. The median student loan for all people with student loans, is a mere $13,000. > cost of health care I agree, that's why the US has such low taxes on the middle class…

> US households have better balance sheets than most highly developed European nations. So that's obviously not making the impact that people would like to claim it is. The median student loan for all people with student loans, is a mere $13,000.

When you have a strong safety net, your don't need that higher balance sheet because the chances of needing it due to catastrophic events are vastly higher. I would be far less scared of being indebted in a Nordic country than in the US.

> As a significant counter point, a vast number of Americans are receiving compensation at their jobs in the way of health insurance coverage. That isn't counted at all in the US disposable income numbers and it's an extremely large number financially.

Yeah, and you lived scared out of your fucking mind if you have some sort of condition where if you lose your job your health can be compromised. What if you have children?

Also, American health coverage is an absolute piece of crap.

> Want to move to Boise Idaho? You can have a household disposable income higher than Sweden, with real estate costs 25% that of Sweden. In Europe, you can't just choose to move to Portugal, much less Czech, much less Bulgaria, and expect to have an income as high as in Germany or Sweden, in order to take advantage of lower cost real estate.

Yeah, but you have to live in Boise, Idaho. Something tells me that the average European metropolis is far more relevant culturally. This fact is not lost in the younger generation that keeps moving to the big cities.

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