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The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

theatlantic.com

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Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#31

Post by amsilprotag »

Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History podcast is doing a three-part series critiquing the state of American education and its effect on social mobility. The first part (released last week) gives a personal perspective of a child who passes on an opportunity for social advancement to instead provide family support. As far as I understand it, the next parts are looking at the incentives that that shape college budgets.

Part 1: http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/04-carlos-doesnt-reme...

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#32

Post by aetherson »

Retric wrote: post #18
jomamaxx wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I look at the US and see a system that seems designed to breed crime, poverty and prostitution." While at the same time producing the highest GDP per captia in the world, the most number of people with college education, and leadership in probably 80% of global industries? The US doesn't 'breed' anything - communities 'breed' themselves. I suggest the US could do a little better with the social safety net, and possi…

Well ignoring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... United Nations (2014)[6] lists US as 12th, which is not bad. But, has been falling for a while. Norway for example seems to be ahead by ~30% despite a huge safety net. Of course by PPP we seem to be stuck at ~25: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IMF_ranked_countries_b...

And the lesson of Norway is: "Find a gigantic amount of oil."

:P

The point that the US does not have the highest GDP per capita in the world is well-taken (what it has the highest is overall GDP). But Norway's path to prosperity is not generalizable.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#33

Post by Nokinside »

douche wrote: post #24
adamnemecek wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think that the Nordic model can't scale?

Social issues are easy when you have a 99% ethnically homogeneous population without any serious religious divisions either.

Nordic countries are not 99% ethnically homogeneous.

Over 20% of Swedes have foreign background. Either immigrants or or their parents were immigrants. They come from Middle East, Former Yugoslavia, Somalia etc.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#34

Post by xyzzyz »

jomamaxx wrote: post #13
jakub_h wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's also about what it buys you? Also, https://www.nordisketax.net/main.asp?url=files/suo/eng/i07.a... claims it's at worst 31.75%, not 60%, and that's not even the average. Plus if you're rich, not all or even most of your wealth comes from personal income anyway, so there's that. And ~20% VAT or equivalent seems quite common over the developed world.

32% national, 22% municipal and 8% social security = 62%. 20% payroll tax. 24% VAT. That it is 'common' does not mean it is fair. If a company has $100K allocated to pay you, $20K goes to payroll tax. Of $80K remaining, you take home 40% of that, which is $32K. Suppose 2/3 of your take home goes towards consumer goods meaning that you're paying an additional $5K on VAT ~= $25K direct take home. So for $100K salary, y…

When you put it this way, it's amazing how they people how these people even survive on that pittance, isn't it?

But actually what happens is that you don't understand how progressive taxes work, how different things have different VAT rates, and so on.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#37

Post by mc32 »

robert_foss wrote: post #2

The American dream mantra as it is currently being regurgitated in America is little more than a cheap slogan at best and calculated lie at worst. What it is said to represent are qualities like social mobility in which America ranks amongst the very worst of the other 48 developed nations.

Hmmm. I think if the dream were killed, then there would be nothing for people to lodge a complaint against. Nothing to look forward to and so people might grow comfortable in their poverty, for example.

Imagine, there is no dream. You get what you have. There is no chance for anyone who has not achieved. Don't even try, there is no chance.

I think we'd be worse off with that mindset. I imagine Russia, Venezuela, etc. feel a bit like this. You're there to eek out a living with little chance of thinking things could change for you.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#39

Post by Florin_Andrei »

cplanas wrote: post #25
jomamaxx wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False. 'Social Mobility' cannot be compared between USA and small Euro nations. 'Social Mobility' within Denmark, a country smaller than Los Angeles, is pretty good. What if you compared 'Social Mobility' across the EU. Do you think that poor people in Croatia, Sicily and Greece are 'mobilizing' up past the Swedish middle class? No. Also - America has large ethnic groups. America is really 5 nations: Europeans, Asian…

The fact that you are putting Spain, Greece and Italy as example of poor EU countries already shows you have an alarming lack of knowledge about the EU at least. Spain and Italy are average countries in the EU, GDP per capita-wise. Greece is lower than average, but far away from the poorest ones ( http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/3/3... ) In Europe anyone can go to a top school. In my case, my…

> if you are good enough for that university, you go there.

As someone who grew up in EU but now I live in the US, this is something that seriously bugs me. What lesson should I teach my kids when they go to college? "Son, no matter how hard you study, or you don't study, all that matters is daddy's money to get you into college."

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#40

Post by DasIch »

douche wrote: post #24
adamnemecek wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think that the Nordic model can't scale?

Social issues are easy when you have a 99% ethnically homogeneous population without any serious religious divisions either.

The problem isn't that the US is heterogenous, the problem is that the US has a massive problem with racism, freedom of and from religion.

Maybe even worse than that though are people like you, who can't even openly admit that obvious problem and only mention it in some euphemistic indirect way.

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