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The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

theatlantic.com

1–10 of 160 posts

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#2
The American dream mantra as it is currently being regurgitated in America is little more than a cheap slogan at best and calculated lie at worst.

What it is said to represent are qualities like social mobility in which America ranks amongst the very worst of the other 48 developed nations.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#4
I have long argued for a non means-tested welfare state that is not a safety net but a foundation on which to build your life.

Here in the UK there is much resentment to people who receive benefits. I have been someone who lived on benefits because I could, not because I needed to. I spent that time learning new skills and overall have been a net contributor.

But I also know people who have no intention of personal improvement who plan to spend their entire lives on handouts.

I look at the US and see a system that seems designed to breed crime, poverty and prostitution.

Don't trick yourself into thinking the Nordic model is the greatest though. I spent 6 months there in Finland and predict a lot of social pain in the next decade. Growing unemployment will put strain on the social services. Multinationals have been allowed in which means profits sucked abroad via Wal-mart, Lidl and a host of others.

The brain drain to other parts of the EU will also grow, if the students I met fulfil their ambitions.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#5

The American dream mantra as it is currently being regurgitated in America is little more than a cheap slogan at best and calculated lie at worst. What it is said to represent are qualities like social mobility in which America ranks amongst the very worst of the other 48 developed nations.

Yea but if you are coming from a developing or third world country it is not a lie.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#6

The American dream mantra as it is currently being regurgitated in America is little more than a cheap slogan at best and calculated lie at worst. What it is said to represent are qualities like social mobility in which America ranks amongst the very worst of the other 48 developed nations.

False.

'Social Mobility' cannot be compared between USA and small Euro nations.

'Social Mobility' within Denmark, a country smaller than Los Angeles, is pretty good.

What if you compared 'Social Mobility' across the EU.

Do you think that poor people in Croatia, Sicily and Greece are 'mobilizing' up past the Swedish middle class?

No.

Also - America has large ethnic groups. America is really 5 nations: Europeans, Asians, Latinos, Blacks, and 'everyone else'. By almost every measure, America is different for these people, it's tough to compare. I'm not saying it's right, rather alluding to what it is.

Finally - I would say having lived in the US and Europe - that there is without a doubt more opportunity in America than in Europe overall. No question about that.

The elite in most European nations come from pretty good families. They go to the top schools and have their careers guaranteed.

Anyone in America can be successful.

Obviously, that's not a pragmatic statement, as poor kids from the ghetto often have no appreciation of this and simply don't work towards great outcomes - but this is the reality.

Anyhow - the gini coefficient for 'all of Europe' I suggest is definitely lower than the US, and this is because it's nary impossible for poor Spaniards/Greeks/Sicilians to rise to higher than the European upper middle class.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#7
That the nordic societies are nice, is of course without question.

But the U.S is a different animal. If you want to live a complacent life, squeeze out a few children, work 9-5 for the rest of your life, without taking any risks, the nordics are a great choice.

If you want to create something extraordinary, take huge risks, maximize your potential, tap into unprecedented resources in the form of engineering know-how, scientific capital, venture capital etc, then you are without question better of in the U.S.

There is a reason why the Googles/IBMs/Facebooks/Bell Labs/MIT's/Skunk Works/DARPAs/NASAs of the world are ALL American. Technological and scientific dominance does not go hand-in-hand with a dull society where 99 % are just complacent.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#8

The American dream mantra as it is currently being regurgitated in America is little more than a cheap slogan at best and calculated lie at worst. What it is said to represent are qualities like social mobility in which America ranks amongst the very worst of the other 48 developed nations.

Yea but if you are coming from a developing or third world country it is not a lie.

It might be worth striving for more than "America: It's better than a tin pot dictatorship"

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#9
post #3

60% personal income taxes after big payroll tax and 20% VAT? I don't think so.

Maybe it's also about what it buys you? Also, https://www.nordisketax.net/main.asp?url=files/suo/eng/i07.a... claims it's at worst 31.75%, not 60%, and that's not even the average. Plus if you're rich, not all or even most of your wealth comes from personal income anyway, so there's that. And ~20% VAT or equivalent seems quite common over the developed world.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#10
post #4

I have long argued for a non means-tested welfare state that is not a safety net but a foundation on which to build your life. Here in the UK there is much resentment to people who receive benefits. I have been someone who lived on benefits because I could, not because I needed to. I spent that time learning new skills and overall have been a net contributor. But I also know people who have no intention of personal i…

"I look at the US and see a system that seems designed to breed crime, poverty and prostitution."

While at the same time producing the highest GDP per captia in the world, the most number of people with college education, and leadership in probably 80% of global industries?

The US doesn't 'breed' anything - communities 'breed' themselves.

I suggest the US could do a little better with the social safety net, and possibly some basic healthcare guarantees, but having 60% taxes, 30% payroll tax and 20% VAT meaning the average worker putting 75% of their income directly towards government spending is not going to work either.

The 'Nordic Model' can only work in small countries, with small, tight ethnic groups and cultural foundations.

Nordic Countries almost all have Monarchies, State Churches (Sweden gives 1% of it's tax revenues to their Christian State Church - could you imagine that in the US?). I'm not saying 'faith' is an important factor, rather pointing out the relatively cohesive social identity.

And yes, you are right: UK and Germany are sucking up talent like vacuums.

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