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How we're scammed into eating phony food

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Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#151

Post by mickronome »

mac01021 wrote: post #121
Dutchie wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not just protectionism. If I buy Bleu d'Auvergne (it's a French cheese) in the Netherlands, I want to be sure I get the real deal, as a consumer.

But what if someone outside France is able to produce equivalent cheese using the same formula? Why do you care where it's from?

Can only speak for myself, but as there is no really objective way to measure that kind of equivalence, we as consumers are left with the rather blunt tools of traditions and establishing brands when it comes to food. Some of the product types which are protected are several hundred years old, predating all trademark laws which would otherwise have had a similar effect.

There are also some products in EU which are sold as ' style because of the reason you state, but with that said: They rarely reach the quality of the 'real deal'. Apparently it is not very easy to create similar quality products?

Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#152

Post by ricksplat »

sampo wrote: post #116
misja111 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because TTIP is heavily influenced by the lobbying of big multinationals, the Monsanto's and the likes. As a result it favors the big food companies over small local producers. Eventually TTIP will lead to less local variety of food products and more food that is imported and therefore less fresh.

> the Monsanto's and the likes Monsanto is an agrichemical and seeds company. It is not in the food business. I know 'Monsanto' is sometimes used as a general synonym for 'evil company', but this is somewhat inappropriate.

and the like

Currently under EU regulations it is a requirement that GM be declared, so it is wholly appropriate.

Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#153

Post by ricksplat »

adrr wrote: post #128
gambiting wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in the EU there are laws that say that if something is labeled as virgin olive oil, it has to be olive oil and nothing else. Greek Yoghurt has to be made in Greece and nowhere else. Lobster meat has to be lobster meat, and Kobe beef absolutely has to be Kobe beef. TTIP basically(in extreme simplification) says that if something is allowed in US it should be allowed in any other signatory country - which would…

EU laws aren't being enforced. All the fake olive oil is coming out of Italy. If you want real virgin olive oil in the US, you have to buy the California ones. It was also reported that Kobe beef was being sold at European restaurants even when Europe had a ban on Japanese meats during the Mad Cow Scare. Those are things just off the top of my head, i bet if you actually dug in, Europe has many examples of where fake…

I don't think you can say that just because rules are being broken, that is a case for them being repealed.

Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#154

Post by guard-of-terra »

emp_zealoth wrote: post #88
rukuu001 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was shocked by the food in UK supermarkets. Pricey and poor quality. But in the country greengrocers had great fresh produce much cheaper than the supermarkets. Bewildering.

Issue of scaling - if you pick completely green tomatoes, you can transport and abuse them how you want - they are hard and unlikely to be damaged. Somebody has to pay off all the managers too, the transport costs etc. The market is pretty locked down too - in some countries you have market stalls that sell produce - usually those are very good at driving the quality up - but usually highly restricted/regulated :(

It's funny if you think if it. Economy of scale used to be delivering better product for cheaper.

Now it delivers worse product for more money, but in such fashion that you can't escape.

It seems that here, some regulations should put an end to their fairy tale.

Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#155

Post by toomanybeersies »

derefr wrote: post #48
Jerry2 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another scam is extra virgin olive oil. Almost all of the ev-olive oils that you buy at supermarkets in the US are fake [0]. It's basically lower-grade olive or vegetable oil with some added green chlorophyl for color. UK supermarkets aren't faring much better [1]. It's all due to mafia control of the oil markets in Italy. 60 Minutes did a report on it recently and they even tested oils for fakes [2]. It's extremely…

What's the cheapest way to get guaranteed-real EV olive oil? Are there known-good brands (perhaps ones produced entirely outside of Italy?) Or, if you cared about "authentic Italian" olive oil, perhaps for personal or restaurant use (i.e. not for resale): how much would it cost (in the US) to just buy bulk Italian olives , and then press them yourself?

Get local oil.

I know that here in New Zealand, NZ produced olive oil is actually made from olives. I could even drive up to the olive farm (plantation? orchard?) and have a look myself to make sure.

So I guess getting New Zealand oil would work in the USA as well, if you could find any. It's a bit of a cottage industry here, so I don't think much makes its way overseas.

Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#156

Post by jokoon »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #102
polskibus wrote: post #38

That's why EU people are protesting against TTIP. We're worried that the lower standards that are common in USA, will prevail, and any resistance will be trampled in private arbitrage courts.

Yes, this is a huge worry for me. The quality of food in the US is atrocious. When I was there, almost nothing tasted as it should, everything tasted bland and mildly sweet. The only way I found to get decent meat was to buy ultra-posh organic stuff at ridiculous prices, and then it would be no more than on par with the cheapest meat I could buy in Spain. Even chocolate is affected! TTIP is one of the worst things th…

Unrelated, but I was just debating GMO labels on "change my view" on reddit.

I admit I was trolling that if GMO are healthy, then ultimately there is no harm in a neutral label. My comments got downvoted very hard. It boiled down that those labels would essentially be a form of misinformation, or that the uneducated public would make uninformed decisions. I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but the post got 400 comments.

Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#157

Post by mac01021 »

Dutchie wrote: post #144
mac01021 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what if someone outside France is able to produce equivalent cheese using the same formula? Why do you care where it's from?

In this particular case, as with the Champagne example, the name of the product indicates its origin. Bleu d'Auvergne means "Blue from Auvergne" (a region in France), where blue is short for "blue cheese". If someone outside of France (Auvergne, more specifically) can concoct a product with similar quality, let them label and market it under their own name. If you fork an open source project, wouldn't it be convenien…

But presumably there is more than one brand of Blue d'Avergne? I'm not suggesting one should be able to steal the trademarks of any of those brands.

And if someone from a different place makes a product that is compositionally identical then probably their ability to market it will depend on the customer's recognition that it is exactly the same thing.

Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#158

Post by ricksplat »

mac01021 wrote: post #121
Dutchie wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not just protectionism. If I buy Bleu d'Auvergne (it's a French cheese) in the Netherlands, I want to be sure I get the real deal, as a consumer.

But what if someone outside France is able to produce equivalent cheese using the same formula? Why do you care where it's from?

If you take for instance "Champagne" - you might have an equivalent product but it's not "Champagne" unless it comes from the Champagne region of France. Yet alternative sparkling whites such as "Prosecco" (Italy), "Cava" (Spain) and "Cristal" (US) seem to do quite well. If you have a good enough product, you shouldn't have any need to claim equivalence with another regional variety.

Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#159

Post by koliber »

misja111 wrote: post #33
lucaspiller wrote: post #9

Not quite the same, but earlier this year I was working in Italy for a few months. I went back to the UK last week and it really surprised me how poor the quality of food is there. I don't mean in restaurants, but the actual ingredients you get in supermarkets. In Italy you can go into even the cheapest supermarkets and get tomatoes that smell like actual tomatoes, where as in the UK they just have no smell. Even tom…

The problem with tomatoes and many other vegetables and fruits is, that they don't grow in the UK so they have to be imported. If they would be imported only when they were as ripe and tasty as the ones you saw in Italy, they would be rotten by the time they arrived in your supermarket in the UK. So, they are harvested when they are not quite ripe. They will ripen a bit more during transport but they will never have…

Tomatoes are something of a passion of mine.

The problems are exactly what you describe, with ensuring that transport will not ruin the fruit. Another facet is not only that the tomatoes are picked unripe, but also that the varieties that are grown are ones which optimize for being able to withstand long transport times as well as for uniformity. Consumers as a group like uniform, smooth, red-colored tomatoes, and they like them year round. Flavor, aroma, and texture are sacrificed.

I can pick unripe tomatoes from my vine just as they are turning light green. They will ripen in the sun and will have a lot of flavor (although maybe less sweetness). Picking them green is not 100% of the picture. The types of tomatoes grown plays a big part.

If you have a chance, buy some heirloom varieties from a local food market or a farmer.

Re: How we're scammed into eating phony food

#160

Post by realusername »

jokoon wrote: post #156
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is a huge worry for me. The quality of food in the US is atrocious. When I was there, almost nothing tasted as it should, everything tasted bland and mildly sweet. The only way I found to get decent meat was to buy ultra-posh organic stuff at ridiculous prices, and then it would be no more than on par with the cheapest meat I could buy in Spain. Even chocolate is affected! TTIP is one of the worst things th…

Unrelated, but I was just debating GMO labels on "change my view" on reddit. I admit I was trolling that if GMO are healthy, then ultimately there is no harm in a neutral label. My comments got downvoted very hard. It boiled down that those labels would essentially be a form of misinformation, or that the uneducated public would make uninformed decisions. I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but the post got 400 comme…

It's exactly like democracy, no one wants democracy when it goes against what they personally want.
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