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Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

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Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#141

I think some of the best programmers are very collaborative and not at all introverted. It's just stupid to generalize like that though. When I'm putting together teams I find I get the best results when I have a mix of nut jobs from across the spectrum of programmer personalities... except brogrammers, hate those guys ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belbin_Team_Inventory

Does anyone find Belbin's team inventory of any use when setting up teams?

Do people tend to allow teams to form themselves? If so, will those teams tend to have people with complimentary characteristics?

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#142
post #138
post #24

With all the discrimination and bullying going around, I think it is good that someone has something nice to say about autistic programmers. Like Ian Murdock who founded Debian and recently committed suicide had Asperger's Syndrome. Despite obvious impressive technical skills, life probably wasn't easy for him. Most companies favor hiring average programmers that fit the mold over "weird people" even if they are amaz…

> I can say that almost all rapists are men. Obviously a tangent, but this strongly depends on how you define rape. Recent CDC studies find that a huge number of men report being "made to penetrate" women against their will. Most normal people would classify this (sex against your will) as rape, but the CDC only classified it as "sexual assault". Unsurprisingly, if you define men being forced to have sex with women a…

You're right that sex should be about a sober uncoerced "yes", rather than just an absence of "no", and that society needs to do a lot more to protect men. This narrow point is something that feminists and MRAs should be able to agree on. It benefits both of their groupings. The extreme end of MRA that rejects all rape statistics, and tries to suggest that rape (in all parts of the world, not just the US) has more male than female victims do great harm to this cause.

Having said that, the UK has some pretty clearly defined laws. They're written well, and are easy to understand and are not ambiguous. There are 3 laws relevant here. i) Rape ii) Assault by penetration iii) Sexual Assault. (I'm making the assumption that offences against children are different.)

Rape and Sexual Assault by Penetration are equally serious and are almost identically written, except rape requires the penetration to be done by a penis.

Women can't be rapists under UK law. Women can be perpetrators of the equally serious crime of assault by penetration. Men can be the victims of rape or assault by penetration. Men and women can be the perpetrators or victims of sexual assault.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/contents

All crimes of rape and assault by penetration are under reported by victims, and under-recorded by police. It's likely that these crimes with male victims are less reported (more under reported) (and less recorded) than these crimes with female victims.

The UK has 2 sets of crime data. The first is what police claim has been reported. (These are not seen as statistically robust because of variations in what police record). The second is the annual Crime Survey of England and Wales. These are seen as robust statistics.

Here's the reports for "Crime in England and Wales" for year ending March 2015 and year ending December 2015. Note that the sexual offences here also include offences against children. I think that's an unhelpful

http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandj...

http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandj...

The reliance on police recording, and the lack of reporting about sexual offences in CESW means that any stats the UK has for sexual offences are seen by government statisticians as being unreliable.

https://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/archive/assessment/as...

From "year ending December 2015":

> Police recorded crime figures showed an increase of 29% in all sexual offences for the year ending December 2015 compared with the previous year (up from 80,265 to 103,614; Table 10a), reaching the highest volume recorded since the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard (NCRS) in April 2002 and marking the first time that the total number of offences has exceeded 100,000 in a given year. The latest rise remains among the largest year-on-year increases since the introduction of the NCRS, although it is not as steep as those seen in the years ending March, June and September 2015 (36% to 41%).

> Police recorded rape increased by 30% (to 34,741 offences) compared with the previous year, while other sexual offences increased by 29% (to 68,873 offences). Offence categories that directly relate to sexual offences against children[2] contributed 44% to the total increase in sexual offences recorded by the police.

> [2] This includes "Rape of a male/female child under 16", "Rape of a male/female child under 13", "Sexual assault on a male/female child under 13", "Sexual activity involving a child under 13/under 16" and "Abuse of children through sexual exploitation".

The charity rapecrisis leans towards gender neutral language. http://rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php

> Approximately 85,000 women and 12,000 men are raped in England and Wales alone every year; that's roughly 11 rapes (of adults alone) every hour

> Nearly half a million adults are sexually assaulted in England and Wales each year

With all these caveats to say that we don't really know the picture around sexual offences in England and Wales I still think it's reasonable to say that sexual offences against adults tend to be committed by men, and that while anyone can be a victim of these crimes (and certainly it's not as overwhelmingly gendered as some people suggest) the victims tend to be female.

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#143
post #24

With all the discrimination and bullying going around, I think it is good that someone has something nice to say about autistic programmers. Like Ian Murdock who founded Debian and recently committed suicide had Asperger's Syndrome. Despite obvious impressive technical skills, life probably wasn't easy for him. Most companies favor hiring average programmers that fit the mold over "weird people" even if they are amaz…

I was pretty surprised by how much time was devoted to rebutting "everyone autistic is a good engineer" when all of the quotes cited (including the infamous ppt) were claiming "every good engineer is somewhat autistic". I don't buy that latter claim either, and it's worth talking about how the "autistic programming genius" stereotype is harmful to everyone, autistic or not, but writing an article that's centered arou…

Well being somehow autistic comes as both of a blessing and a curse.

Imagine a gaussian curve compared to the average (bi modal)

Autistic curve is somehow a little centered below the «average curve» when it comes to learning, because of the sociopathic trait making them tougher for them to enter the mold.

Then this curve will be more spread than the non autisitic one: those who fail will fail harder, whereas those who make it at the end will have learned either to compensate the lack of «empathy» with observations and/or working more the raw knowledge.

For every «gifted» autistic there is at least one that failed harder than average in academic field.

A handicap is like a marathon you are given to run with a distanced point of departure: it will be tougher for you in life and you may have to work more than the others to develop your raw running skills to make it to the finish line.

People able to make it, are both still handicaped (mold adaptation) but also they over-developed skills to compensate. But they often don't complain; they finally want to be seen as normal. So they silence their pain, and probably have met people like them that failed without deserving it. Plus, they have experienced bullying and may want to make a low profile to avoid it again.

HR in Tech industry at my opinion have developed an intuition of the profile of autistic coders and are taking advantages of them.

They are weak, they fear to unionize because they fear retaliation, and they don't like how they are represented.

Most of them who believed once that computer science would be the saving path, may now be disenchanted. But like people who turned the table once, maybe they don't care thinking of the next plan to finally achieve happiness for what remains of their life.

Overcoming a handicap gives you both confidence, and doubt.

Oh! By the way, a handicap does not come from your differences, but from the look the society is having on you.

I have no doubt, being black or a women... is not making you significantly different, the handicap comes from being treated differently... especially by Human Resources.

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can you (have you) put your projects on github ? maybe if you put 5+ non-trivial projects on there people can see your breadth and depth of skills.

I have a github account established, and it has a couple of projects on it. One, a telnet client, is missing. I keep forgetting to add that in. I've been meaning to, once the language is more established, to spread the packages out into different repositories. I know I should have more of a variety there, the trouble thus far has been the 'what'.

Contribute to a project with one or more healthy companies behind it. From Linux to Libreoffice or Nextcloud - good chance they will hire you.

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#145
post #5

What's the myth that's being "dispelled"? I see the "Alex St. John's infamous PowerPoint" image, pasted in the article, as more valuable than the entire article. St John is harsh an direct, and seems to contain more objective true than the entire article. Maybe another trait related to high-IQ+autism is a profound disregard for political correctness. Is St.John diagnosed with autism? Maybe the part of the brain dedic…

The funny thing is, all of my friends with autism are fiercely political. If you asked me, I'd probably say people with autism were MORE political than those without. Of course, none of my friends with autism work in software.

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#146
post #145
post #5

What's the myth that's being "dispelled"? I see the "Alex St. John's infamous PowerPoint" image, pasted in the article, as more valuable than the entire article. St John is harsh an direct, and seems to contain more objective true than the entire article. Maybe another trait related to high-IQ+autism is a profound disregard for political correctness. Is St.John diagnosed with autism? Maybe the part of the brain dedic…

The funny thing is, all of my friends with autism are fiercely political. If you asked me, I'd probably say people with autism were MORE political than those without. Of course, none of my friends with autism work in software.

Are we talking about the same kind of politics? Because, from my experience, autistics are more likely to hold strong views and discuss the "big" politics (as in, people ruling the country) while allistics are more into the practical "small" politics (like, say, typical office drama).

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#147
post #90

some real abuse of psychological terminology here. most clinically autistic people don't hold down jobs, certainly not professional roles, even if they have a high IQ

This used to be a really damaging stereotype and a de facto standpoint of psychology (and psychiatry) for years. I've personally met experts who wouldn't diagnose ASD in people who managed to get married or get a job. I've personally been dismissed because I "look normal" (whatever that means). I've been given several bogus diagnoses because ASD has been repeatedly ruled out based on nothing but presumptions and prejudices.

There are no family, job, or looks criteria in DSM-IV. I know ASD folks who hold jobs, have families and are more than successful in life. From the outside, they seem pretty normal, maybe a bit quirky or eccentric. From the inside? The way they arranged their lives to work around the social/sensory problems is something to applaud.

The important part? They don't "look" autistic, so most laypeople don't correlate autism with "a possibility for a successful life". Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#148

Given the rate that autism is showing up nowadays, it seems like spectrum disorders are over-diagnosed. People who were once just odd-balls or non-social are now being lumped in with people who have moderate to severe issues, and it's to the detriment of both groups.

As someone on the spectrum I don't see it as a detriment. Despite a seemingly vast difference between a high-functioning engineer and a low-functioning child, the strategies for improving the quality of life are pretty much the same. Routine, sensory stuff, avoiding meltdowns, recognizing emotions, all that stuff - it's as real for a brilliant but eccentric programmer as it's real for a non-verbal kid with no particular talents.

Because in the end, it's about improving the quality of life.

I'm on the "eccentric" end of spectrum; for 27 years I've been told that nothing is wrong with me, that I'm just "too smart". I can tell you I was pretty close to joining the 27 club; the piling problems ended up being too much to handle. I came upon the description of Asperger's purely by accident; no mental health professional would even suspect it because I "seemed normal". Finally being able to understand why I'm losing my ability to speak once in a while or getting violent whenever overstimulated wasn't just a relief. It was a life-saver.

If I didn't realize it's ASD, ignorance and stereotypes could have killed me.

PS. Yes, some people will claim they are "a little bit autistic" out of ignorance or attention seeking. Others will lump clinical cases with weirdos. Both don't change the validity of a proper diagnosis.

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#149

People with Asperger's are much more likely to have suicidal thoughts and act upon them. http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(14)70248-2/abstract An obsessive personality can lead to an individual working 80 hour weeks - not by choice, but by default. They literally don't know any better and are not necessarily competent to make a conscious decision not to this. I've worked with two suicides…

> An obsessive personality can lead to an individual working 80 hour weeks - not by choice, but by default. They literally don't know any better and are not necessarily competent to make a conscious decision not to this.

It gets even worse. Once someone with Asperger's "clicks" into a specific routine, it becomes a pretty challenging endeavor to change it without some external influence. Same with bad eating/sleeping habits. I'm currently in the "works overtime out of habits" phase and it's extremely hard to snap out of it.

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#150
post #25

As they say, if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person. It's not just that autistics are all different the same way allistics are all different; compared to the breadth of the entire autism spectrum, allistics are all pretty much the same . You never know what you're going to get when picking from the autistic box of chocolates. Maybe a savant, maybe a person of average intelligence but remark…

I like your comment about cubicles being a luxury. I don't know why they became a funny cliche of office horror. You don't have to be autistic to be driven mad by the constant interruptions enforced by office culture. When they tried to make pair programming mandatory, most of us decided to ignore it. Can't ignore the daily standup though. It just means I will not be able to concentrate until 10:30 every day. If that…

> You don't have to be autistic to be driven mad by the constant interruptions enforced by office culture.

There's a difference between finding something completely pointless and stupid (an exaggerated "this is driving me mad!") and completely losing your ability to concentrate ("my productivity is 10% of what it was when I had a quiet room for myself"). I get so aggressive, hopeless and sad when overstimulated that I had to quit the job because open space was too much to handle.

> Can't ignore the daily standup though. It just means I will not be able to concentrate until 10:30 every day.

I purposely miss the standup meetings and just mail my report in instead. No one has complained, as my work still gets done and I still communicate with the team (although by Slack, not in person).

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