Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#51

Post by nibs » Sat, Jul 09, 2016, 4:02 PM UTC

erichocean wrote: post #50

nibs wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We call this dynamic the nerd vs. nerd exploiter dynamic. Jobs and Woz or Allen and Gates are good examples.

Ironically, it's Jobs that has all of the typical Aspy traits, not Woz—right down to deciding on one set of clothes and sticking to it. If you actually read an S. Jobs bio and are familiar with Aspy traits, he's a textbook case. What confuses people (if they are confused) is that most people with Aspergers are not artistic, don't like speaking in front of crowds, or running teams. However, it makes a ton of sense if…

I have read SJobs bio(s). My father, brother and fiance have Aspergers. My father and brother especially relate more to Woz and are scared of people like Jobs. I relate more to Jobs than Woz, and I am more OCPD. If Jobs is Aspergers, he is also very manic spectrum. My father/brother are strictly unipolar. Here is more on the OCPD thing if you are curious: http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201...

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#52

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 09, 2016, 4:06 PM UTC

nibs wrote: post #49

mads wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes.. Other people might call it some form of synergy and it happens all the time. The problem is that for every Apple and every Microsoft, there are hundreds of "nerd exploiters" ruining nerd lives. It almost sounds like I am turning this into a "nerd lives matter" campaign or something like that. This is not my intention, but it is a real danger for autistic software developers, which may lead them to engage in som…

Indeed. Although eventually nerds learn boundaries in most cases that protect them. Apple and Microsoft worked out pretty well for Woz/Allen without them having to do any sales themselves. So it can be win-win. My Dad, fiance and brother all have psychiatrist-verified Aspergers (pre DSM5). So the nerd and nerd-exploter dynamic plays out in day-to-day lives too. I am a very strong verbal communicator, as is my Mom for…

[deleted]

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#53

Post by nwatson » Sat, Jul 09, 2016, 4:11 PM UTC

nommm-nommm wrote: post #43

jackmott wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Most companies favor hiring average programmers that fit the mold over "weird people" even if they are amazing at their work." Do they? At my company we half-seriously joke when programmers are too socially well adjusted, that they won't fit in. We prefer a bit of spergy. I don't have any idea what 'most' companies think, or if large companies even have consistent trends in their own thinking.

What's a "spergy"?

probably derived from Asperger ... Asperger --> Asperger-ish --> Aspberger-ey --> 'spbergery --> spergy

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#54

Post by digi_owl » Sat, Jul 09, 2016, 4:11 PM UTC

aab0 wrote: post #47

mads wrote: post #22

I dont know if autistic people are better programmers, but what I feel that - from 20 years making software - is that people with these personality traits that fit into the spectrum of autism and who happen to end up in the software industry are extremely vulnerable to being exploited by people with certain other personality traits. Put a narcissistic (or whatever you want to call this type of people - maybe sociopat…

> "haven't learned wage-slave mentality yet" > In the ensuing outrage, a PowerPoint presentation written by St. John surfaced which included a slide in which he referred to engineers with Asperger syndrome as being "the holy grail" of hires. "They work like machines," he wrote, "don’t engage in politics, don’t develop attitudes and never change jobs." Someone needs to send all these people patio11's guides to salary…

If you haven't seen an aspie thats aggressive and disagreeable, then you haven't seen an aspie outside his/her comfort zone.

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#55

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 09, 2016, 4:13 PM UTC

p4wnc6 wrote: post #38

jackmott wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Most companies favor hiring average programmers that fit the mold over "weird people" even if they are amazing at their work." Do they? At my company we half-seriously joke when programmers are too socially well adjusted, that they won't fit in. We prefer a bit of spergy. I don't have any idea what 'most' companies think, or if large companies even have consistent trends in their own thinking.

Yes they do. Companies value organizational fealty above all else, and genuinely care little about productivity or talent. Sure, they talk and talk about caring for talent -- lip service necessary for various political pursuits -- but they don't actually value it. Even when an especially productive person is hired, their ability is more often talked about as a credential and used to win arguments from authority betwe…

[deleted]

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#56

Post by digi_owl » Sat, Jul 09, 2016, 4:14 PM UTC

erichocean wrote: post #50

nibs wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We call this dynamic the nerd vs. nerd exploiter dynamic. Jobs and Woz or Allen and Gates are good examples.

Ironically, it's Jobs that has all of the typical Aspy traits, not Woz—right down to deciding on one set of clothes and sticking to it. If you actually read an S. Jobs bio and are familiar with Aspy traits, he's a textbook case. What confuses people (if they are confused) is that most people with Aspergers are not artistic, don't like speaking in front of crowds, or running teams. However, it makes a ton of sense if…

I fear that thanks to Hollywood etc, aspies and sociopaths bleeds over into each other in popular culture.

If Jobs as aspie, there is no way he would have been up on that stage every WWDC to woe the crowd with superlatives.

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#57

Post by dschiptsov » Sat, Jul 09, 2016, 4:14 PM UTC

adrusi wrote: post #20

dschiptsov wrote: post #7

Tell that to guys like Igor Sysoev, who outperformed averages by an order of magnitude due to autisticly intense attention to details. Hint: a mild form of autism, what casuals call Asperger, given that one survived childhood constant bullying and confusion about its causes, is actually good to have.

Maybe its neutral or slightly better in adulthood, but only if the autism isn't accompanied by other problems that frequently accompany autism, such as language disabilities and anxiety.

Asperger is nothing like Forrest Gump or the Rainman characters, BTW.

It is like Holden Caulfield or Travis the Taxi Driver, or the Deer Hunter, or Rocky the Bum.

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#58

Post by erichocean » Sat, Jul 09, 2016, 4:14 PM UTC

nibs wrote: post #51

erichocean wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, it's Jobs that has all of the typical Aspy traits, not Woz—right down to deciding on one set of clothes and sticking to it. If you actually read an S. Jobs bio and are familiar with Aspy traits, he's a textbook case. What confuses people (if they are confused) is that most people with Aspergers are not artistic, don't like speaking in front of crowds, or running teams. However, it makes a ton of sense if…

I have read SJobs bio(s). My father, brother and fiance have Aspergers. My father and brother especially relate more to Woz and are scared of people like Jobs. I relate more to Jobs than Woz, and I am more OCPD. If Jobs is Aspergers, he is also very manic spectrum. My father/brother are strictly unipolar. Here is more on the OCPD thing if you are curious: http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201..…

Oh for sure, I didn't mean to imply that Jobs was _only_ on the spectrum.

I work in film (in addition to tech) and know a lot of people on the spectrum that I think people who only meet autistic programmers would have difficulty recognizing.

Even in TFA, one of the descriptors is:

> They generally marry the first girl they date

Maybe, but in my experience, that's only one specific kind of person with Aspergers (who I agree definitely exists). However, at least in film and other artistic/people disciplines, that wouldn't describe the "typical" person on the spectrum—I think you mainly see that type in tech/engineering circles. (To be fair, that's what the article is focused on.)

In my experience, at least in the fields I work in, people with Aspergers are "sigmas" (to use PUA terminology for a moment) and have no difficulty whatsoever dating, meeting people, etc. Certainly they don't do it the "normal" way, but they're very successful.

UDPATE: Thinking about it further, most people on the spectrum are not intuitive feelers (in the Myers Briggs taxonomy), they're sensory thinkers. When you find an Aspie who is an intuitive feeler, like Jobs, it's certainly confusing to people: if he's an Aspie, how can he get up in front of crowds? Lead a team? Negotiate? Etc. Unpossible.

It's really just "normals" applying their own biases on what a normal person would/could do, without understanding what makes those on the spectrum—especially those that are more emotional/intuitive—tick.

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#59

Post by bpyne » Sat, Jul 09, 2016, 4:14 PM UTC

rjbwork wrote: post #42

optimuspaul wrote: post #13

I think some of the best programmers are very collaborative and not at all introverted. It's just stupid to generalize like that though. When I'm putting together teams I find I get the best results when I have a mix of nut jobs from across the spectrum of programmer personalities... except brogrammers, hate those guys ;)

I don't mind collaborating, and indeed enjoy it. But don't force it upon me by an oppressive open office environment. I need quiet and an environment free from distraction and other people to really dig into my code and produce my best work. Living in a constant state of interruptibility, observation, and distraction will not get good code out of me, and indeed many other devs. I, like many others, can make do, but w…

Everything you said plus having a developer assigned to several concurrent projects. Jumping between different project setups, PM's, software designs, etc. is mentally taxing to an extreme. It leads me to make more mental mistakes. Rapid task switching is not conducive to quality, detailed work.

Re: Dispelling myths about the autistic programmer

#60

Post by mads » Sat, Jul 09, 2016, 4:15 PM UTC

erichocean wrote: post #50

nibs wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We call this dynamic the nerd vs. nerd exploiter dynamic. Jobs and Woz or Allen and Gates are good examples.

Ironically, it's Jobs that has all of the typical Aspy traits, not Woz—right down to deciding on one set of clothes and sticking to it. If you actually read an S. Jobs bio and are familiar with Aspy traits, he's a textbook case. What confuses people (if they are confused) is that most people with Aspergers are not artistic, don't like speaking in front of crowds, or running teams. However, it makes a ton of sense if…

Autism is complicated. Asberger originally labeled people with these traits as people with "psychopathic autism".

I don't think Jobs was heavy on the nerdy side of the autism spectrum. More likely on the psychopathic side - I don't mean this in a bad way. Just trying to analyse things.