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Facebook Messenger begins testing end-to-end encryption using Signal Protocol

whispersystems.org

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Re: Facebook Messenger begins testing end-to-end encryption using Signal Protocol

#281

Post by Siimteller »

Techbrunch wrote: post #38
alva wrote: post #3

From what is written, I understand this to mean that users can select this feature for specific conversations. That not all messages are subject to this encryption. I am not usually one for paranoia, but is anyone else becoming more suspicious about Facebooks motivations and involvement with gov? This feature is a massive boost for intelligence services dealing with unsophisticated actors. This reduces the haystack s…

Reasons from @alexstamos (CSO @ Facebook): - FBM is multi-device, and we'd like to see E2E usability improve to support this. For now, pick one device and keys never leave it - Secret conversations don't currently support popular features like searching message history, switching devices, voice/video, etc - Hundreds of millions use Messenger from a web browser. No secure way to verify code or store keys without routi…

Alex Stamos should check out https://wire.com (full disclosure: I work there)

• E2EE by default, in groups too

• Has solved the multi device, sync problem

• Has webapp

• Fingerprinting of all devices

• Does not sacrifice features for security - voice, video, media

• Crypto and comms protocols open source https://github.com/wireapp

• Privacy and security whitepaper https://wire.com/privacy

Re: Facebook Messenger begins testing end-to-end encryption using Signal Protocol

#282

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #79

I'll use if could communicate with non-Facebook programs implementing Signal protocol.

I've found the blog post where moxie argues against federation:

https://whispersystems.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/

"One of the controversial things we did with Signal early on was to build it as an unfederated service. Nothing about any of the protocols we've developed requires centralization; it's entirely possible to build a federated Signal Protocol based messenger, but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all."

Re: Facebook Messenger begins testing end-to-end encryption using Signal Protocol

#283

Post by bostik »

wmccullough wrote: post #225
niftich wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm assuming for people who don't have strong security backgrounds That's already a bad start. You mean inventing Signal from scratch (which is rough) or incorporating the libsignal protocol into a new messaging app? All of the libsignal repos have a good readme that explains init [1][2] , so you can start there. Browsing Signal source is helpful not so much to understand the protocol, but to see if any special pre…

It may be a bad start, but if we want to see this implemented in many products at a large scale, you'll have to expect that not everyone is a security expert. I swear HN has become riddled with people who want to be contrarian for the sake of being so.

Getting high-grade security right is exceptionally hard.

There's a saying about sex: make one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life. Security and cryptography are orders of magnitude worse. It's bad enough that errors compound, but it doesn't end there. You can have subtle and counter-intuitive failure modes where a single step outside the happy path is enough to completely annihilate the security of your system.

I feel there is no analogy that could capture the absurd complexity and catastrophic failure potential.

To give some background - I've been working with applied crypto since 90's, and professionally (on and off) since early 2000's. That experience is still next to worthless: I know for a fact that I am not good enough to actually implement anything that could withstand the attacks of a motivated and well-funded adversary. (Or even that of a bored PhD student.)

The best I can do is find tools and components that have been battle hardened by the handful few exceptional professionals. At least that way my hubris shouldn't amount to too much damage.

Re: Facebook Messenger begins testing end-to-end encryption using Signal Protocol

#284

Post by lorenzhs »

eropple wrote: post #224
lorenzhs wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can totally run your own server for yourself and your friends: https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure-Server (you'll have to change the server's URL in the client's source as well and compile it yourself, but that's really easy) What you won't be able to do is federate with the official servers. Oh, and there's also a WebSocket transport (used by the Desktop client) that doesn't involve Google. That just do…

> you'll have to change the server's URL in the client's source as well and compile it yourself, but that's really easy I'm sorry, but is this a joke? "To not use a centralized server that you can neither audit nor trust, you have to recompile the client, but that's easy ?" This smacks of "oh, PGP for email is fiiiiiine." To say nothing of the silliness of the inability to federate.

I didn't say this was a good way for normal users. Normal users don't care about federation and don't want to run their own server. But for people on HN it should be easy, and if you and your hacker friends don't trust moxie you can do it. I never said you should, just that's it's possible and not hard.

Re: Facebook Messenger begins testing end-to-end encryption using Signal Protocol

#285

Post by lorenzhs »

jamesgeck0 wrote: post #253
lorenzhs wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can totally run your own server for yourself and your friends: https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure-Server (you'll have to change the server's URL in the client's source as well and compile it yourself, but that's really easy) What you won't be able to do is federate with the official servers. Oh, and there's also a WebSocket transport (used by the Desktop client) that doesn't involve Google. That just do…

Distributing a modified client is non-trivial, especially if any of your friends use iOS.

You can sideload apps without a developer subscription. It's annoying but works. But you have an unsolved update problem on both Android and iOS. You really shouldn't do this if you're not 100% sure of the implications.

Re: Facebook Messenger begins testing end-to-end encryption using Signal Protocol

#286

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

SixSigma wrote: post #7

I'm still sticking with the website version, thanks https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.facebook.o... Messenger, Facebook This app has access to: Identity find accounts on the device read your own contact card add or remove accounts Contacts find accounts on the device read your contacts modify your contacts Location precise location (GPS and network-based) approximate location (network-based) SMS edit…

protip: setup a separate google account on your android which you only use for facebook messenger.

Re: Facebook Messenger begins testing end-to-end encryption using Signal Protocol

#287

Post by vic-traill »

josho wrote: post #135
arximboldi wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hundreds of millions use Messenger from a web browser. No secure way to verify code or store keys without routing through mobile. I wouldn't use the web version if they had not disabled Jabber access... and then I could use OTR. This trend makes me very sad... IM networks are getting more centralized as ever. I don't feel thankful for this kind of development. End-to-end encryption should not be a feature of the serv…

> digital prisons Did you just coin that? It appropriately captures what is going on, but without having the positive connotation that comes from a 'walled garden'. I love the phrase. As an example outside of messaging, I have a fitbit and 'digital prison' so aptly describes what happens with my personal health data. I can't get my heart rate data out of their prison, because the fitbit warden doesn't see it fit to g…

I think of it as more of a 'Hotel California' - you can check in any time you want, but you can never leave. [0]

Or at least your data can't.

[0] http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/eagles/hotelcalifornia.html

Re: Facebook Messenger begins testing end-to-end encryption using Signal Protocol

#288

Post by anotheryou »

I'd be very glad. I keep facebook for the people who don't have any proper IM (and for the in my view much more legit micro blogging on FB).

I'm scared of what will be possible to extract from my chat logs in a few years, but the benefit of being able to IM people that only have FB feels greater right now.

Biggest problem I see so far is the multiple devices issue, but for most it will be just Desktop and Mobile, so why can't you send each message twice, encrypted separately for each device (automatically, not manually)? Does OTR3 have this feature?

Re: Facebook Messenger begins testing end-to-end encryption using Signal Protocol

#289

Post by cyphar »

jomamaxx wrote: post #266
r2dnb wrote: post #120

I've read the whole thread and I'm surprised that nobody mentionned how easy it would be for Facebook to store the secret keys. Page 10 of the white paper mentions that there is a remote key stored on Facebook servers which can be used to decrypt the local key. If Facebook still is to be trusted, I don't see what's the deal here. I think that as soon as you put the words "end-to-end" encryption on a marketing materia…

"End-to-end encryption without open-source has no value. " Not quite. It means nobody is going to be able to read your data other than: A) A nefarious Facebook staffer who has hacked their internal systems B) A government entity with a court order It's a step up from no encryption

> It means nobody is going to be able to read your data other than:

(Assuming it is properly implemented and doesn't have backdoors, which can only be practically verified if the client is free software).

Re: Facebook Messenger begins testing end-to-end encryption using Signal Protocol

#290

Post by cyphar »

_yp wrote: post #262
justratsinacoat wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It looks as if PGP's days are numbered Comments like this are inevitable and represent Facebook's attempts to induce us to route all of our communications though its platform. For the quoted commenter, it's probably too late.

PGP has failed to provide "encryption for the masses".

PGP fills a niche that OTR and Axolotl do not. It provides a bunch of operations that are not supported by OTR (anything that requires signatures that are verifiable by third parties). PGP is used by the masses (package signatures and similar functions), it's just that they don't use PGP for communication.
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