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U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

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Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#221

Post by oldmanjay »

gnaritas wrote: post #195
tps5 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never paid much attention to the details of the Madoff case but I think people on the internet throw out the "sociopath" label way too freely. Not much is gained from that label, in my opinion. And I certainly wouldn't apply it to Bernie Madoff or Holmes based on what I know of their situations.

> but I think people on the internet throw out the "sociopath" label way too freely. Not an argument. > And I certainly wouldn't apply it to Bernie Madoff or Holmes based on what I know of their situations. Not an argument. If you're going to disagree with someone, generally, some logic as to why is useful, not just "I don't agree". Madoff certainly deserves that label, he ruined lives by running the biggest investme…

What definition of "sociopath" are you using here? How do you third-hand diagnose a man as completely lacking in empathy? Can we somehow use this skill for good instead of boring internet commentary?

Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#222

Post by pavel_lishin »

deftnerd wrote: post #96

Sometimes company leaders have severe problems with ethics. As mentioned in other comments, even YC has had companies that have bundled adware/malware with software, practiced dark patterns, hidden news of security breaches, etc. I tend to see YC as being more "evolved" than other VC's, but I also think that these problems are more ingrained into the human condition. YC could consider making funding contingent on all…

> Sometimes company leaders have severe problems with ethics.

> YC could consider making funding contingent on all high level company officers attend or participate in some kind of ethics course.

Do you think those company leaders simply didn't know that what they were doing was unethical? I doubt it was a case of "whoops, who knew!"

Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#223

Post by ceejayoz »

mikeash wrote: post #177
ceejayoz wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> statistically autopilot is safer than human This is not born out by the currently available facts. Tesla quoted deaths-per-autopilot-mile versus overall deaths-per-mile for all cars on the road. This is very misleading information, for a number of reasons. 1. Teslas are high-end luxury cars and thus have better safety features than the lower end of the market. 2. Teslas are likely to be newer and better maintained…

Autopilot doesn't just give up when it can't handle something. It sounds an urgent alarm telling the driver to take over, and if the driver doesn't, it stops the car and turns on the hazard lights. Most drivers will take over and disengage Autopilot in doing so, so your point remains, but I wanted to make it clear that the car isn't just doing a "Jesus^H^H^H^H^HDriver take the wheel!" thing.

My resulting question for Musk would be "at what point does a subsequent accident not count in the deaths-per-mile stat?"

Is it when the alarm sounds? When it begins to slow? When it turns on the hazards? When it has come to a complete stop? How would being rear-rended during this process be counted?

Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#224

Post by mbesto »

sseveran wrote: post #215
gmarx wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this just a combination of generally admired startup behavior (fake it til you make it) combined with a business on which people's health might depend? When I read that they were using regular lab test machines to perform the majority of tests, it struck me as pretty much what my YC friends reported as received wisdom- that it's legit to start out doing it "by hand" before you get your tech working.

Startups aren't about "fake it til you make it". At its core a startup (and its founders and investors) are typically making a contrarian bet that must be right. Theranos bet that it could use a small amount of blood could be used to the same effect of much larger blood draws. It has turned out that this was not right at this point in time. If its technology worked we would not be reading this news story. Of course w…

> Startups aren't about "fake it til you make it".

Unfortunately, many of them start that way, especially those that reap the benefits of network effects. Anecdote: http://venturebeat.com/2012/06/22/reddit-fake-users/

Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#225

Post by zackbloom »

w1ntermute wrote: post #196
jasonlaramburu wrote: post #187

The article mentions that the company's current governance structure may prevent the board from terminating Holmes. Does that mean she is the majority shareholder?

She is a majority shareholder, but also her shares are of a class that gives her 100 votes/share.

She really did a great job with that negotiation, if only her company had actually had any value.

Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#226

Post by bllguo »

gmarx wrote: post #198
jcranmer wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoting from a comment on one of Derek Lowe's posts on the subject ( http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2015/10/15/the... ) (note that a large fraction of commenters are active chemistry, medical, or biology researchers): > The blood you get from a prick will be a mixture of blood from small venules, small arterioles, capillaries and lymph vessels, mixed with whatever loose tissue and cells have been cut b…

You underestimate the magic of machine learning! :0...kidding. Sort of. I suspect they thought there was a software solution to this problem (and for all I know there might be)

What? Please elaborate! I can't think of how software overcomes this problem.

Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#227

Post by Dylan16807 »

gnaritas wrote: post #195
tps5 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never paid much attention to the details of the Madoff case but I think people on the internet throw out the "sociopath" label way too freely. Not much is gained from that label, in my opinion. And I certainly wouldn't apply it to Bernie Madoff or Holmes based on what I know of their situations.

> but I think people on the internet throw out the "sociopath" label way too freely. Not an argument. > And I certainly wouldn't apply it to Bernie Madoff or Holmes based on what I know of their situations. Not an argument. If you're going to disagree with someone, generally, some logic as to why is useful, not just "I don't agree". Madoff certainly deserves that label, he ruined lives by running the biggest investme…

Declaring that someone must clearly have no empathy because they hurt people they didn't even know is also not an argument.

Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#228

Post by novembermike »

ryporter wrote: post #87
kumarski wrote: post #62

I've talked to over 100 hematologists. This business, didn't pass a basic litmus test of objective criticism from people who work in the space. There seems to be this bravado among founders who believe they're sticking it to all the people who say something's amiss. I think if there's an elephant in the room though, it probably should be assassinated with a huge body of transparent evidence.

To be fair, that is how innovation occurs. There are many examples of "ridiculous" ideas that ended being wildly successful. Where would Elon Musk be if he listened to all of the incumbents who said that his ideas would never work? Obviously, the putative innovators massively failed in this case, but I don't think that the outcome proves that their original idea was fatally flawed, or at least that it wasn't worth at…

Elon Musk is an Nth mover (where N is high) in almost everything he's done. Electric cars are not a new concept (they actually predate ICE cars in some ways). Rockets are not a new concept. Paypal was kind of innovative conceptually at the time but in a boring way.

Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#229

Post by redmaverick »

The difference between a startup like Theranos/uBeam and a product based "soft"ware company is that in one case you can make outrageous claims and then use sheer determination, will power and lots of money to make it happen retroactively but you cannot change the fundamental laws of nature.

Re: U.S. Bans Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes from Operating Labs for Two Years

#230

Post by Dylan16807 »

scott_s wrote: post #194
tps5 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never paid much attention to the details of the Madoff case but I think people on the internet throw out the "sociopath" label way too freely. Not much is gained from that label, in my opinion. And I certainly wouldn't apply it to Bernie Madoff or Holmes based on what I know of their situations.

I use the word because, based on his actions, I think he does not have empathy for other people. He knowingly defrauded thousands of people, often depleting all of their savings. The scale of his fraud, and the length of time he perpetuated it, is staggering.

Brains don't handle scale well. Defrauding a thousand people can be easier empathy-wise than defrauding a single person, because it's a statistic rather than an individual. You cannot use the total scale in trying to judge whether someone has empathy.

The impulse to associate 'bad actions' with 'inherently bad people' can make it harder for people to realize when they are acting badly and to pull out.

http://www.npr.org/2012/05/01/151764534/psychology-of-fraud-...

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