Live data from Hacker News

How Trees Calm Us Down

newyorker.com

41–50 of 97 posts

Re: How Trees Calm Us Down

#41

A tree on a street is incredibly expensive to maintain. The tree itself need maintaince from a gardner and the surrounding road and sidewalk needs extra maintenence too.

The price is worth paying, and planting more trees will bring the cost per tree down.

> The price is worth paying

I looked up prices as I was initially in doubt if this was a good cost-benefit. This article claims that New York Cty trees have a lifetime cost of ~3,500 USD (in gardening). I was under the impression of a much higher annual cost, so I was way off in my initial reasoning.

This report puts annual gardening costs of Portland trees at around 40usd [1]

These numbers do not include added road, curb and sidewalk maintenance incurred by the tree, as far as I can tell.

[0]http://scienceline.org/2013/10/the-high-cost-of-carbon-in-ci... [1] https://www.portlandoregon.gov/parks/article/514095

Re: How Trees Calm Us Down

#42
post #40
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such a typical tech reaction/sentiment: what's better than real trees? A VR simulation of trees! :)

For those people where getting out and about to real woodland is impractical, then yes I see a good market for VR solutions such as this. Housebound or otherwise infirm people would benefit from VR simulations of peaceful locations. Likewise so would all us shut-in techies that live in our basements...

It could work quite well as the new tab screen in a browser. Slowly move the camera through the woodland so that the view changes. That would keep the view incidental whilst keeping some novelty.

Re: How Trees Calm Us Down

#43

All of those saying correlation is not causation did not read the article. The study detected an immediate and neasurable effect from just walking among trees.

I was the parent of the thread that brought up 'correlation is not causation' point [0]. I did read the entire article, as well as other papers on the effects of environment on well being.

My main point however, is a call for some prudence especially with the relatively recent focus on bad statistics in psychology and the neurosciences. A caution against accepting a paper's conclusions because of the correlation of a few variables, and the omission of some obvious other ones. Here's just one link from 2013 [1]. fMRIs are a tool, and like any other, can be used incorrectly, which is also part of the problem. I am not negating Marc Berman's paper or this article based on it; I am just a bit wary of papers or articles with big claims (remember the article cites a 1% improvement after all of the buoying of the affects).

A variable not mentioned is that if you are walking outside, or facing a bunch of trees in a yard from your hospital room, you are getting daylight. Window panes block UVb, but not UVa (some are treated to block UVa too). Sunlight/daylight help you to produce vitamin D, which is linked to depression and the immunity system. This could be the cause of the 1% improvement the article states, and possibly not the trees. Treatment for clinical depression figures are 60-80% successful depending on the study. An order of magnitude greater than 1% [2].

Aside from the few people who have replied to this thread about allergies and other maladies, how many people do you think are going to associate pain, depression or other negatives with an image of trees in their head when responding to a survey?

All that being said. My neighborhood was poor, and crime-ridden, yet my tree-lined block provided me with many peaceful moments of just staring at the trees, or simply listening to the wind in the leaves. I do believe they are beneficial, at least to me (except during a hurricane in NJ, where I thought the 60 foot tall, old oak tree just by my house was going to fall on my roof!).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_cau...

[1] http://www.wired.com/2013/04/brain-stats/

[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2908269/

Re: How Trees Calm Us Down

#44
post #42
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those people where getting out and about to real woodland is impractical, then yes I see a good market for VR solutions such as this. Housebound or otherwise infirm people would benefit from VR simulations of peaceful locations. Likewise so would all us shut-in techies that live in our basements...

It could work quite well as the new tab screen in a browser. Slowly move the camera through the woodland so that the view changes. That would keep the view incidental whilst keeping some novelty.

Sounds like the trend of slow television: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241278873249040045785391...

Re: How Trees Calm Us Down

#45

One hypothesis is that we've also evolved to associate greenery with healthy land and lifestyle. I can see why these signals from millions of years can have the 1% quoted effect.

Here's a different hypothesis:

We are mostly not human. Our bodies contain a vast assortment of usually symbiotic species so it is appropriate to think ecologically, more co-evolution.

It seems reasonable that flora and fauna responses to environmental factors that in of themselves may not be directly relevant to a human, but that we benefit from the interaction as a side effect e.g. useful compounds being produced naturally, partially synthesized from plant life even though the direct plant product may show no sign of helping us because we cannot yet process it artificially. Hope that makes sense.

Having said that, the Japanese researcher I mentioned above does say some kinds of hinoki oil produce comparable effects to traveling in forests.

Now seems like a good time to plug my favorite anime on tiny invisible life forms:

Mushishi http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0807832/

Re: How Trees Calm Us Down

#46

A tree on a street is incredibly expensive to maintain. The tree itself need maintaince from a gardner and the surrounding road and sidewalk needs extra maintenence too.

For the 18 years I lived in Brooklyn, the trees were never maintained by the city. Our block association planted them in the late sixties, and the houses on either side watered them when they were hosing their own sidewalks (as well as keeping all the stray dogs from shitting and pissing in their soil!).

I remember only one incidence of the city being called in, or a private contractor to repair the sidewalk by the two oldest oaks on the bottom of the block whose roots had lifted and cracked the walkway. They just expanded the opening; I'm sure it was not up to code after for width between the areaway fence and the tree's opening in the sidewalk.

I can't believe it costs much to maintain them after the initial cost of planting them. I never had to care much for the trees on my property in NJ either, other than pruning some dead limbs that were about to fall over my access way or roof from the taller trees. The younger trees did fine on their own. Although, almost all of the hemlock trees succumbed to the Gypsy moths, but even neighbors who spent thousands on trying to save theirs, suffered almost the same number of losses. I was also not quick to cut them down if they didn't 'look' right. Now one that neighbors said looked dead, is thriving again!

Re: How Trees Calm Us Down

#47
post #38
post #37

I can see a market for a VR movie/game which allows the user to walk/drive through (or just sit in) a forest :)

Such a typical tech reaction/sentiment: what's better than real trees? A VR simulation of trees! :)

I didn't say it was better than real trees.

Let me ask you: why do people play digital soccer games when real soccer is so much better?

Re: How Trees Calm Us Down

#48

A tree on a street is incredibly expensive to maintain. The tree itself need maintaince from a gardner and the surrounding road and sidewalk needs extra maintenence too.

The price is worth paying, and planting more trees will bring the cost per tree down.

At the end of the day it's money not being spent on something else. Would you rather spend 4min sitting in traffic on a tree lined street because plans to upgrade a 4way stop to something that can handle more volume was canned in favor of adding trees.

Pretty is nice but beauty without function gets old really quick.

Re: How Trees Calm Us Down

#49
post #6

I was born and raised in Brooklyn, NY, but moved out to rural NJ in my thirties. I bought a house on a lake with no motorboats, plenty of black bears and raccoons and lots of trees. I now live in the rice fields of East Java, Indonesia, so I guess you can say I love the outdoors. I do question the science or numbers in the study as much as I believe the basic premise to be true, however, correlation does not automati…

From what I've seen, there seems to be a decent level of consensus in scientific research on the issue (and also recognition that more research is needed to understand what kind of causation might be behind the correlation). Here are some other interesting studies: http://news.stanford.edu/2015/06/30/hiking-mental-health-063... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4204431/

Re: How Trees Calm Us Down

#50
I remember an explanation for the calming effect of nature by David Allen of Getting Things Done fame. He claims that the environment is too complex so your mind "lets go" he repeats some of that here https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20121027044918-402563-david-a... I'm not sure what the basis of that analysis is, but he could be right. I contrast that with the jail from THX 1138 which doesn't seem like it would be relaxing http://nightflight.com/wp-content/uploads/THX-1138-6.jpg
Post reply on HN