NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent • Hacker News Board

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#121

Post by kamaal » Thu, Jul 07, 2016, 6:26 PM UTC

chdir wrote: post #85

kamaal wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anyone protest? India doesn't have enough electricity to waste on Malls and Movies theaters. Or big offices like tech parks in Bangalore! What you have mentioned applies to every tech park in Bangalore, so should people now protest against their very source of employment?

I think you are missing the point. The protest should be against polluting the city to power a non-necessary activity by not going to the mall. AND if the government purposely delayed an electricity connection by months or years, then you should protest against them too. The above problem doesn't seem to be an issue of supply & demand of electricity, but more of a power tussle between the builder & authorities for po…

>>The protest should be against polluting the city to power a non-necessary activity by not going to the mall.

Nearly every major set up runs on diesel generators, where all would you stop going?

These sort of protests, bans etc don't scale well.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#122

Post by gajjanag » Thu, Jul 07, 2016, 6:26 PM UTC

kartD wrote: post #78

jdietrich wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are still a lot of older two-stroke engines in use. Four-stroke engines from local and Chinese manufacturers are typically crude air-cooled carbureted designs with very high emissions. A modern European motorcycle might produce 20x lower emissions than a typical Indian bike thanks to much stricter regulations.

Any references on this? I think most engines are Indian manufactured and India uses emission norms based on European regulation [0] Would be interested to see any data. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharat_Stage_emission_standard...

You are right in general, but note that for instance there are still many 2 stroke auto rickshaws: http://www.autocarpro.in/news-national/karnataka-ban-polluti....

Typically, the game goes as follows: new laws get drafted, local groups such as auto rickshaw unions get together and demand time/cash incentives to move to more expensive, cleaner equipment, local governments grant extensions, and the cycle repeats.

Then there are the general issues plaguing enforcement in India, which are listed in the wikipedia article.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#123

Post by kamaal » Thu, Jul 07, 2016, 6:29 PM UTC

gajjanag wrote: post #119

kamaal wrote: post #6

As an Indian when I come back from overseas this the very first problem I notice, especially when I return from a long trip. The problem is far deep than one can imagine. A city like Bangalore has almost an impossible amount of scooters on roads. Almost every house has at least one, and most homes have easily 1 for every two people staying in the home. And its not like US where there are laws on building homes. Peopl…

> This is even possible because auto rickshaws and buses have gotten expensive. Public transport of any kind is expensive, unpredictable and not worth when you look at the overall comfort and economics of having our own scooter. When I lived in Bangalore, and whenever I visit there, BMTC (the public bus transport provider) has buses at least every few minutes along the main corridors during the day. They are often cr…

>>BMTC (the public bus transport provider) has buses at least every few minutes along the main corridors during the day.

Actually definition of city has changed. Bangalore has gotten so big to a point, not all go to the core city for work these days. Plus it takes a lot of time negotiating traffic.

Underground metro is the best bet Bangalore has currently.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#124

Post by dlandis » Thu, Jul 07, 2016, 6:30 PM UTC

njs12345 wrote: post #90

dlandis wrote: post #83

How much worse is the air pollution in New Delhi compared to a relatively polluted US city such as Los Angeles?

You can compare the maps for e.g. PM2.5 in New Delhi and LA quite easily: http://aqicn.org/map/delhi/mandir-marg/#@g/28.6188/77.2405/1... http://aqicn.org/map/losangeles/los-angeles-north-main-stree... Quite a lot worse, as you can see!

Thanks, however I think an overall picture/summary that took into account seasonal differences would also be interesting in this context in addition to that type of real time information.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#125

Post by jdietrich » Thu, Jul 07, 2016, 6:30 PM UTC

kartD wrote: post #78

jdietrich wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are still a lot of older two-stroke engines in use. Four-stroke engines from local and Chinese manufacturers are typically crude air-cooled carbureted designs with very high emissions. A modern European motorcycle might produce 20x lower emissions than a typical Indian bike thanks to much stricter regulations.

Any references on this? I think most engines are Indian manufactured and India uses emission norms based on European regulation [0] Would be interested to see any data. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharat_Stage_emission_standard...

The regulations are almost meaningless because of corruption.

A majority of drivers in India never took a test - they simply bribed an official to receive a license. Only a fool would pay the Rs 20,000 fee for a commercial vehicle roadworthiness test when the certificate can simply be bought for Rs 1,500. It's easier and cheaper to pay bribes than to work through the official bureaucracy.

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/marianne.bertrand/research/p... http://siteresources.worldbank.org/PAKISTANEXTN/Resources/Ur... http://thewire.in/16474/why-swacch-bharat-type-schemes-will-...

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#126

Post by sremani » Thu, Jul 07, 2016, 6:33 PM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #80

kamaal wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anyone protest? India doesn't have enough electricity to waste on Malls and Movies theaters. Or big offices like tech parks in Bangalore! What you have mentioned applies to every tech park in Bangalore, so should people now protest against their very source of employment?

India doesn't have enough electricity There's something fundamentally broken about this statement, which suggests a deeper problem - why isn't the market for electricity working in India?

1. Most Indian power generation is Coal, there are hydel, and Nuclear is stuck in Gen2 (thanks to sanctions due to Nuke testing - the current Gen is 5)

2. There is scarcity of Coal, and Coal that is mined in India is high-soot

3. The demand for electricity outstrips Supply.

4. The supply never caught up with the demand because Transmission lines are owned by Government(state-level) and there is rampant theft

5. Because of theft and subsidies money is lost by government and the more the cost of generation the more loss the government will incur, so renewable is mostly costed out till recently.

There is hope though, Russia is building six nuclear power plants in India, more dams are coming online and investments in Renewables have increased.

Once distributed solar becomes affordable, the electricity owes in many parts of India would diminish or become tolerable.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#127

Post by rahulsidhu » Thu, Jul 07, 2016, 6:35 PM UTC

j0e1 wrote: post #84

As someone who grew up in New Delhi, I think the government has taken quite a few steps like passing laws that require all public transport to run only on CNG, mandating industries to be positioned outside the city and more recently having policies to curb number of cars on the road. But the problem of pollution never seemed to improve. Optimistically I've told myself that if those measures weren't taken we would hav…

I can distinctly remember the air quality in Delhi improving drastically when the public transportation moved to CNG and the metro started operating in the early 00s. Over time though, the policy of building more roads rather than focussing on public transport has led to both congestion and pollution problems worsening. I am optimistic that once the peripheral highways are completed and metro phase 3 is operational, air quality will improve.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#128

Post by soundwave106 » Thu, Jul 07, 2016, 6:38 PM UTC

Noseshine wrote: post #117

Retric wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the western half: The 'low' areas have minimal rainfall and are 1KM over sea level. http://www.chinamaps.org/china/china-map-of-precipitation-an... The high areas get a little more rainfall, but are mostly 4-5+km over sea level. http://www.china-food-security.org/data/maps/dem/dem_h.htm Combine them and you can see why the population map looks the way it does. http://www.china-mike.com/china-travel-tips/tourist-ma…

Uhm... Canada, not China. I responded to the comment that said > You could probably do the same in Canada fwiw. I would not ask about China, I've seen enough documentaries about their deserts and high plateaus. Some of them about the silk road, which was not an easy one because of that geography.

From what I see, there's a pretty good correlation between the population density map (https://www.britannica.com/place/Canada/images-videos/Popula...) and the portion of Canada at least sporadically covered by permafrost. (http://www.enr.gov.nt.ca/state-environment/13-permafrost)

In addition to the rather obvious climate this implies (eg, rather cold), from what I understand, building anything on permafrost is very challenging.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#129

Post by frandroid » Thu, Jul 07, 2016, 6:42 PM UTC

rapind wrote: post #95

Retric wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A huge chunk of china is basically uninhabitable. http://www.china-mike.com/china-travel-tips/tourist-maps/chi... PS: You can draw a strait line in China with 6% of the population on the larger half, and 94% of the population on the smaller half. http://www.undertheraedar.com/2012/06/population-of-china.ht...

You could probably do the same in Canada fwiw.

Canada and China are roughly the same size.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#130

Post by rahulsidhu » Thu, Jul 07, 2016, 6:43 PM UTC

sremani wrote: post #126

stickfigure wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India doesn't have enough electricity There's something fundamentally broken about this statement, which suggests a deeper problem - why isn't the market for electricity working in India?

1. Most Indian power generation is Coal, there are hydel, and Nuclear is stuck in Gen2 (thanks to sanctions due to Nuke testing - the current Gen is 5) 2. There is scarcity of Coal, and Coal that is mined in India is high-soot 3. The demand for electricity outstrips Supply. 4. The supply never caught up with the demand because Transmission lines are owned by Government(state-level) and there is rampant theft 5. Becau…

I am afraid this picture is far from accurate. Power plants on the whole are running at a very low PLF for some time. Very cheap power is available in the short term markets[1]. The transmission system has also improved in the last two years and now prices are more or less uniform across the country[1].

Last mile distribution infrastructure is still a WIP in many places but the real problem is financial. Many distribution companies are owned by state govts. and unable to charge/recover for the electricity they distribute. This incentivizes them to procure/supply as little power as possible. Many states have now opted for a financial restructuring [2] and I expect demand will pick up sharply.

[1] http://www.vidyutpravah.in/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ujwal_DISCOM_Assurance_Yojana