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Why most people don't like jazz

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Re: Why most people don't like jazz

#121

Post by evgen »

axod wrote: post #78
raganwald wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression that a musical is a spoken word play where the actors break out into song and dance on a regular basis, whereas in an opera the singers rarely dance or speak. If that is the case, the difference between musicals and opera is more than just the language. and actually supports the author's point that American culture needs visual stimulation (the dance) and words they can easily understand (t…

"Joseph and the amazing technicolor dreamcoat" is entirely sung (Well, apart from "and I don't speak Egyptian very well"), but is usually referred to as a musical. Maybe just marketing though. Personally I usually expect opera to mean a particular style of singing more than anything else.

Les Miz also has only a handful of spoken lines.

Re: Why most people don't like jazz

#122

Post by tjr »

hkuo wrote: post #117

I used to be a huge jazz fan. I discovered it around my senior year in high school and just started eating it all up. While other cars were blaring rap music and Guns and Roses, I would be playing John Coltrane and Thelonious Monk and Duke Ellington. So I can speak from personal perspective on how I lost interest and give my 2 cents on why it's lost popularity. It's actually pretty simple. There's just nothing new. N…

I still am a fan of jazz, but I agree with the sentiment. By the late 1960's or so, jazz innovation was beginning to wane in favor of copying elements of rock music, seemingly in an attempt to gain more listeners.

Some great jazz/rock fusion came out of this (e.g., Weather Report), but it was more or less an evolutionary dead end for jazz. By the 1980's, jazz started going back to the styles developed in the 1950s/1960s, and most of the jazz we hear made today is just rehashing what the masters did during that era, only not as well, and without the creative freshness.

I personally think pretty much every genre of music has hit up against this lack of creativity recently, though... I really don't hear much new music that I think is all that great.

Re: Why most people don't like jazz

#123

Post by btilly »

stan_rogers wrote: post #69
bryanh wrote: post #5

Not that I entirely agree with this article, but as a jazz musician, it definitely interests me. I am curious though; when was the last time everyone listened to an entire album while doing nothing else? (no driving, surfing, working, etc...)

Earlier today, in fact. But it's not so much the attention span thing that gets in the way (I play reeds, by the way) but the intellectual masturbation of a lot of jazz that turns people off. I've yet to run into anybody who turns their nose up at, say, Dave Brubeck's "Time Out", which is certainly rhythmically sophisticated but tuneful, or Kenny Burrell's "Midnight Blue" (an album that's usually the first up for vis…

I think your point is more effective with those who recognize the music you're talking about. Which most here won't.

Here is "Take 5" from "Time Out" by Dave Brubeck: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwNrmYRiX_o

And "Midnight Blue" by Kenny Burrell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wAmxuHt5nw

Re: Why most people don't like jazz

#124

Post by superjohan »

philwelch wrote: post #81
ecoffey wrote: post #44

I thought I was the only one who didn't pay attention to lyrics. My friend and I kinda of resemble that dynamic. He loves some of the shittiest songs (imo) because of interesting lyrical content, where as I totally ignore them. If I like them it's because of how they were sung not because of me diving through looking for "meaning". That's why after all these years Pinback is still one of my favorite bands. Their voic…

"He loves some of the shittiest songs (imo) because of interesting lyrical content, where as I totally ignore them. If I like them it's because of how they were sung not because of me diving through looking for "meaning"." Yes, this. One of the reasons I love metal is because a great metal vocalist like Dickinson or Dio just plain sounds awesome, no matter what he's going on about.

It wasn't until after I started playing Rock Band with friends that I noticed that a whole lot of lyrics in general are completely inane. (count me in as one of those guys that never listen to the lyrics)

Re: Why most people don't like jazz

#125

Post by nerme »

I take some issue with the basic thesis.

I don't think you can outright separate the appreciation of music in to two camps, that of the musical content and that of the lyrical content.

Much as in poetry, the sounds and rhythm of the words are an integral part of what makes a good melody.

Hip-hop might actually be the ultimate example of this. Sure, there is content, but it is mainly about the flow of the lyrics. The fact that the author of the post looks to hip-hop as being some kind of example of the decline in musical appreciation just tells me that he is himself is lacking in the ability to properly listen to music.

Jay-Z has amazing flow. Busta Rhymes is a freaking explosion of syncopated beats, as good as swinging as Gene Krupa, but managing to tie lyrics in as well. KRS-One? Snoop? Eminem? They are practically jazz drummers who use their mouths instead of a drum kit.

I would bet the fact that they're talking about drugs, violence, money, women, and what it's like to be poor are the main reasons they turn people off. Most detractors don't want to know that this world exists and sure as hell don't want to have anything to do with it.

Beyond hip-hop, this is an important element to pretty much all music that could be labeled as "good". Sure, the actual language content is important... you're going to connect with more people if you're singing about heartache and love than if you're singing about molecular biology. However, if your lyrics are set to a stale melody, or don't have a rhythmic foundation that inter-plays with the rest of the music, it's not going to sound good, and people are not going to like it.

Vowel sounds are incredibly important. Imagine the lyrics to your favorite song. Now, get rid of the consonants, and listen to the rhythm of the different vowels. More than likely, you'll find a syncopated pattern. There might be an interplay of the "ee" and "ah" sounds, there might be repeated "oo" sounds at the end of every verse, etc. It may be simplistic, but I can guarantee it's there.

There are a number of great songs that have either nonsensical lyrics in them or at least very simplistic content. Led Zeppelin has never been known for their lyrics and are still selling tons of albums every year. "Ob-la-di-ob-la-dah"? "Ma ma ma my sharona"? And I'm just sticking to rock/pop music with these few examples...

Style and fashion, of course, have a lot to do with popular appeal. And these are based on trends, where timing is everything. If The Beatles were to have never existed (and somehow music today ended up where it is without them, which is highly unlikely) and they suddenly emerged, I'm not sure that they would be all over the airwaves. Sure, there would be people who were absolutely smitten with them, but I they are who they are because of a certain time and place. They hit their peak when albums like Pink Floyd's "Piper at the Gates of Dawn" were top 10 albums in the UK. Can you imagine that? Piper? Top 10? That is one weird and crazy album. Actually, I think it got to number 6 on the charts.

There are a lot of elements that go in to music. But they go in to and form a cohesive whole. It is very hard to separate out one element from another and say that this element is more important than another element.

I don't see how you can split lyrics from their musicality.

Re: Why most people don't like jazz

#126

Post by CWuestefeld »

nollidge wrote: post #110
davi wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also don't really listen to lyrics, largely because it is hard for me. I think I actually have some sort of perceptual incapacity -- I have to really try to understand them, whereas it seems other people hear them very easily. Even when I try, it's hard. I'm smart in other ways, but in this regard I am comparatively deficient. Anybody else on HN share this 'syndrome'? For me, music has always been about structure,…

Yes, I share that syndrome, though it depends on the artist. I'm convinced the reason that there are so many passionate haters of Coldplay out there is because they're focusing on the lyrics, which are totally vague and, IMO, just written as another component of overall aesthetic. On the other hand, I can't listen to Bob Dylan or Eminem [1] without hearing the lyrics, because in their case the music is really just th…

There's a lot of music having lyrics that seem engineered to be ignorable, making me think that the artist only intended them to be placeholders, either because they wanted the voice to be a freer instrument, or just because the genre format demanded lyrics.

Aside from the obvious case of scat-singing, examples that come quickly to mind are Frank Zappa, Presidents of the USA, and Rob Zombie. I lot of the lyrics on King Crimson's Discipline seem to almost make it explicit that the lyrics themselves are an appendix. (I recall an interview with Zombie: someone asked him what some strange lyric was supposed to mean, and he replied something like "I don't know, it's just the song").

But it would be wrong, I think, to assert that instrumentals or lyrics for the sake of the voice are somehow on a higher plane. I think that being able to produce excellent melody and harmony as well as excellent lyrics, and to integrate them well, is the highest form.

Re: Why most people don't like jazz

#127

Post by bitwize »

aristoxenus wrote: post #15
keyist wrote: post #6

An interesting corollary is that jazz musicians tend to not have as striking an image when it comes to their marketing. Compare what you first visualize when you hear the names KISS or Flava Flav versus say Brad Mehldau or Keith Jarrett. EDIT: This is probably due to jazz musicians taking themselves more seriously and wanting to be known more for their music than anything else. If a jazz artist enlisted Dir En Grey's…

Have you noticed how much more sophisticated Lady Gaga's music is than the rest of what's popular these days? Her popularity has nothing to do with that. It's the way she throws in catchy verbal chants and is equally brilliant at visual and personality branding. And she as a great name.

Wait, what? No. I haven't seen/heard Lady Gaga do anything that Kylie Minogue didn't do better.

It's like, hmmm. Imagine you have a bag of Starburst™ brand fruit chews. You eat one, it's an orange. You eat the next, it's an orange. You go through an entire bag of orange fruit chews when suddenly -- out of the blue -- you encounter a strawberry-flavored chew. And you start raving about how the strawberry is more subtle, more nuanced, more rife with unexplored avenues of flavor than the bag of oranges you've just consumed.

No. It's just superficially different. It's still ground-up pig toes, HFCS, and artificial flavorings and colorings.

Re: Why most people don't like jazz

#128

Post by Legion »

hernan7 wrote: post #47
bryanh wrote: post #5

Not that I entirely agree with this article, but as a jazz musician, it definitely interests me. I am curious though; when was the last time everyone listened to an entire album while doing nothing else? (no driving, surfing, working, etc...)

1985 I mean, I love music (I'm an amateur guitar & sax player, even tried my hand at writing some music software) but I can't listen to an album without doing anything else. Does that make me a bad person?

No. What it speaks to is how listening habits have changed. And since a musician's goal is to be heard, a large shift in listening habits unquestionably changes how much is produced.

Re: Why most people don't like jazz

#129

Post by CWuestefeld »

swannodette wrote: post #61

The state of music commentary on this thread is low enough to be insulting and pretty much validates the article. I find it humorous that a website that draws people dedicated to abstract thought can have such a mediocre understanding of music and music history. Do yourself a favor, find a piece of music that you think you don't like. Sit down and listen to it 50 times without distraction so that you know all the cha…

The state of music commentary on this thread is low enough to be insulting and pretty much validates the article.

This seems rather contrary to the kinds of talk normally heard on HN.

It's quite typical for us to take ourselves as developers to task when we build an application that users fail to appreciate, or have difficulty in using.

How is it, then, that when listeners fail to appreciate the greatness in some piece of music, that it's the listener's fault? By analogy, shouldn't we look at this as a failure of the musician?

Re: Why most people don't like jazz

#130

Post by seabee »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #116
swannodette wrote: post #61

The state of music commentary on this thread is low enough to be insulting and pretty much validates the article. I find it humorous that a website that draws people dedicated to abstract thought can have such a mediocre understanding of music and music history. Do yourself a favor, find a piece of music that you think you don't like. Sit down and listen to it 50 times without distraction so that you know all the cha…

Sit down and listen to it 50 times without distraction so that you know all the changes, turns, asides, tensions, contractions, contradictions, and undulations. In college I had a minor in electronic art. We'd sit through each other's performances and then comment on all the various artistic work that went into them. The elephant in the room was that it was all BS. I couldn't count the number of times that someone to…

It's valid to recognise a pattern, a technique that you used. Name it if you like. The mistake is only made when they believe the pattern was made intentionally. More often than not, the only thought entering your mind as you compose is 'this is pleasing, so I will keep it'.

However, even if those facets of the music you interpreted exist by chance rather than by design, they still have value and are a source of inspiration. Conversely, bad designs exist. It's the outcome that matters; that's what you learn from. Not from intentions.

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