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NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

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Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#11

Post by jessriedel »

mc32 wrote: post #7
exabrial wrote: post #2

We can pass all the air regulations in America, but it won't matter one bit until China and India get their act together. China has 100% 24/7/365 smog cover along their population centers. So sick of people pushing overbearing regulation in the USA without even holding these countries accountable!

Polluted air is a symptom of a system which has little regulation over industrial and commercial waste. This means that while we suffer from the air, they will suffer from all kinds of water and soil pollution. They are inflicting grave health wounds upon themselves (like we did to ourselves earlier). We can hope the people will demand a cleaner environment from the government and industry.

Polluted air is a symptom of being poor, and making the reasonable trade off between cost and long-term health risks. China doesn't pollute now because they somehow have to learn valuable lessons in democracy; they pollute because they can't afford the same luxuries we have in the US.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#12

Post by parennoob »

Dutchie wrote: post #4
exabrial wrote: post #2

We can pass all the air regulations in America, but it won't matter one bit until China and India get their act together. China has 100% 24/7/365 smog cover along their population centers. So sick of people pushing overbearing regulation in the USA without even holding these countries accountable!

Air regulations have an immediate, local effect too. But you're right, we should subsidize clean air in developing countries too. [..Ducks..]

Well given that a lot of the Industrial Revolution came at the expense of forceful colonisation, I would say this subsidy would be a great way to structure reparations to India from the UK. [..Ducks lower..]

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#13

Post by mikeash »

jessriedel wrote: post #10
mikeash wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone living in the US who visits China every couple of years, I would really love to see China clean up their act (the pollution has become by far my #1 dislike), but I would really hate to see the US loosen pollution regulations because of some weird idea that we shouldn't bother cleaning up our air unless everybody else does too. I love the fact that when we have air quality warnings, I can't even tell the di…

It would probably be much more cost effective for the US to pay Chinese firms to reduce emissions (say, by paying for the installation of more advanced filtering equipment) than it is to try and wring further reductions out of US firms.

I don't see how. Particulates don't persist in the atmosphere that long. I understand a little bit of this stuff makes it across the Pacific, but not a whole lot. Living on the east coast, I'm basically unaffected by it except when I go to China, and most Americans don't do that.

If we're talking about reducing CO2 emissions, then yes, further cutting emissions in the US is probably not going to do much good compared to putting similar effort into China. But CO2 is just one piece of the puzzle, and it's one which can even be at odds with combating other types of pollution in some cases (as we saw in the VW emissions scandal).

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#14

Post by rsync »

douche wrote: post #9
kamaal wrote: post #6

As an Indian when I come back from overseas this the very first problem I notice, especially when I return from a long trip. The problem is far deep than one can imagine. A city like Bangalore has almost an impossible amount of scooters on roads. Almost every house has at least one, and most homes have easily 1 for every two people staying in the home. And its not like US where there are laws on building homes. Peopl…

Are most of those scooters 2-stroke or 4-stroke? At that scale, the efficiency and emissions differences could make a big difference.

They're two-stroke. Small engines in the developing world are typically terrible - very dirty, very noisy ... and also cheap and easy to fix.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#15

Post by HenryTheHorse »

That satellite image of the haze is scary. Scarier still is how the deterioration of air quality in the cities is affecting health. (The WHO estimates ~15 million bronchial asthma patients in India.)

You haven't experienced air pollution if you haven't breathed in the evening air in Mumbai or Bangalore during the rush hour.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#16

Post by mahranch »

mikeash wrote: post #5
exabrial wrote: post #2

We can pass all the air regulations in America, but it won't matter one bit until China and India get their act together. China has 100% 24/7/365 smog cover along their population centers. So sick of people pushing overbearing regulation in the USA without even holding these countries accountable!

As someone living in the US who visits China every couple of years, I would really love to see China clean up their act (the pollution has become by far my #1 dislike), but I would really hate to see the US loosen pollution regulations because of some weird idea that we shouldn't bother cleaning up our air unless everybody else does too. I love the fact that when we have air quality warnings, I can't even tell the di…

I don't think his point was that we should loosen our restrictions, but re-direct our attention on the biggest abusers. Right now that's China. And it's not even close.

You would need to combine the emissions of the U.S, India and the entirety of the European Union to equal China's annual CO2 emissions. See for yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...

Basically, China emits as much CO2 as the next 3 countries. And they do nothing to curb it. Oh, they have regulations on books (Hey look, see, we have laws too!) but there is virtually zero enforcement unless something big is coming to town, like the olympics. And then they only focus on the relevant region, not the whole country. Oh, and they tell the factories to turn off completely rather than adding scrubbers or filtering.

China could reduce its emissions by orders of magnitude if they could get these factory owners and coal plants to put the bare minimum filters/scrubbers in play. But that cost money, and factory owners/government need every penny. Regulations you say? I must have forgot my monthly bribe money. Here you go sir. That's how it plays out, and will continue to play out until there is a massive systemic change to China's culture. The corruption is simply to high for anything else. They rank 100 on corruption, with 1 being the least corrupt. The U.S? Usually between 13 and 17. Source: http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#17

Post by [deleted] »

exabrial wrote: post #2

We can pass all the air regulations in America, but it won't matter one bit until China and India get their act together. China has 100% 24/7/365 smog cover along their population centers. So sick of people pushing overbearing regulation in the USA without even holding these countries accountable!

[deleted]

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#18

Post by kapilkaisare »

douche wrote: post #9
kamaal wrote: post #6

As an Indian when I come back from overseas this the very first problem I notice, especially when I return from a long trip. The problem is far deep than one can imagine. A city like Bangalore has almost an impossible amount of scooters on roads. Almost every house has at least one, and most homes have easily 1 for every two people staying in the home. And its not like US where there are laws on building homes. Peopl…

Are most of those scooters 2-stroke or 4-stroke? At that scale, the efficiency and emissions differences could make a big difference.

4-stroke, but this is anecdotal.

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#19

Post by mikeash »

mahranch wrote: post #16
mikeash wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone living in the US who visits China every couple of years, I would really love to see China clean up their act (the pollution has become by far my #1 dislike), but I would really hate to see the US loosen pollution regulations because of some weird idea that we shouldn't bother cleaning up our air unless everybody else does too. I love the fact that when we have air quality warnings, I can't even tell the di…

I don't think his point was that we should loosen our restrictions, but re-direct our attention on the biggest abusers. Right now that's China. And it's not even close. You would need to combine the emissions of the U.S, India and the entirety of the European Union to equal China's annual CO2 emissions. See for yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di... Basically, China emits as much CO…

We're not talking about CO2 emissions here, we're talking about local pollution such as fine particulates and ozone.

I've noticed that discussions about pollution frequently mix up CO2 and other types of pollution. It's weird.

If you want to combat climate change, then yes, efforts should be directed at China. But if you want clean air in the United States, then efforts should be directed at the United States, and possibly parts of Canada, Mexico, and Cuba. (Although I doubt Cuba contributes much.)

Re: NASA Data Shows Toxic Air Threat Choking Indian Subcontinent

#20

Post by venomsnake »

exabrial wrote: post #2

We can pass all the air regulations in America, but it won't matter one bit until China and India get their act together. China has 100% 24/7/365 smog cover along their population centers. So sick of people pushing overbearing regulation in the USA without even holding these countries accountable!

Implement carbon tax over any product - no matter if imported or domestically made. That would force them to make their act cleaner. And it will trickle down to their cities too.
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