Live data from Hacker News

BSD vs. Linux (2005)

over-yonder.net

351–360 of 371 posts

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not just a rationalization. BSDs control the kernel and the userland, meaning that file system layout is coherent. Check any Ubuntu installation and packages are all over the place. This is perhaps unavoidable. Also, OpenBSD, DragonflyBSD, and FreeBSD can all be used as server or desktops without much fiddling. Their installers are better than anything in the Linux world. You can have one up and running w…

I don't think the layout is coherent at all. Ubuntu layout is much more coherent. If I need nginx configuration I look in /etc/nginx. Following the same pattern if I need mysql configuration I look in /etc/mysql. If I need to figure out the actual daemon configuration for each I look in /etc/init. It's all very nice and tidy. Actual binaries go in /usr/local/bin or /usr/bin or /bin. That's pretty much all I need to k…

> If I need to figure out the actual daemon configuration for each I look in /etc/init.

... except that that was Ubuntu two major versions and some time ago, back when it used upstart. Nowadays, Ubuntu Linux is a systemd operating system.

* https://freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/file-hierarchy....

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#352
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> User vs base is artificial. No. It's not. If nginx releases an update, do you also need to update your OS? No, because the user dependency graph isn't shared with the base OS. If you update your OS, do you also need to update nginx? No, because there's backwards ABI compatibility. The split is not artificial.

> If you update your OS, do you also need to update nginx? No, because there's backwards ABI compatibility. Only for minor versions. How is that different from any other package that promises ABI compatibility? Why are FreeBSD OS components split up at a low granularity, so you can't install the stuff you want without the stuff you don't? Why are there two separate sets of tools to update them and other packages? edi…

> ... non-base packages ... base packages ...

FreeBSD does not work this way. You are projecting Linux onto it.

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't actually as nice and tidy as it would seem because you do not have a direct separation between system configuration and application configuration. It's a small, subtle detail that for many is less important today than it once was; however, if I have two FreeBSD systems of mostly equal versions and I want to migrate applications and/or users from one to the other, I know ALL I have to do is copy from /usr/loc…

I don't want that separation in a consistent and coherent system. User vs base is artificial. What I care about is the end result the overall system accomplishes and base vs non-base doesn't really factor into that. What does it matter to me if nginx is part of the base system or not? I need a web server. Arbitrarily choosing apache/httpd vs nginx to include as part of the base system is incidental complexity where I…

Florian Haas apparently disagrees.

* https://hastexo.com/blogs/florian/2016/02/21/containers-just...

* https://plus.google.com/+FlorianHaas/posts/4xjQP1q6DEN

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#354

When I say "Linux", I mean Red Hat. I mean Slackware. I mean Mandrake. I mean Debian. I mean SuSe. I mean Gentoo. I mean every one of the 2 kadzillion distributions out there, based around a Linux kernel with substantially similar userlands, mostly based on GNU tools, that are floating around the ether. So... do you include Android? It's worth asking, because though it uses a Linux kernel, it's a heavily modified one…

> little chance of Binder ever being accepted into Mainline

I hate to break it to you, but...

https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/stable/linux-st...

Looks like it's in 4.1+.

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can hear the opposite from me then. I have an OS X laptop and a desktop running Gnome (Fedora) and I find Gnome far better. Originally, I didn't like Gnome 3, but after I used it a lot, I got used to it; I added some extensions, and now I prefer it. In my opinion: * Finder is garbage (alt tab is broken and non configurable. I can't figure out how to convince it that the built in display is always the primary disp…

> Finder is garbage Try PathFinder: http://www.cocoatech.com/pathfinder/ It can be used for free until you decide to buy it. > alt tab is broken and non configurable Cmd+Tab? What exactly do you find annoying? Try Missing Control (F3, or set a mouse hot corner in System Preferences -> Mission Control) to quickly see all windows (for all process, or Ctrl+F3 for current app, Cmd+F3 for desktop) and just raise the one y…

>Cmd+Tab? What exactly do you find annoying?

Cmd-` to change between windows within an Application is a behaviour I don't like and prefer Cmd-tab to cycle through all windows. Gnome defaults to the same thing as Finder but it's possible to change the behaviour.

>Try nix: https://nixos.org/nix/

I've taken a look at guix and it's promising.

> Which [of Apple's programs are terrible], and how, exactly?

Well since I stopped using a lot of these programs where possible, my opinions may be out of date. But Quicktime player doesn't play most files. It's slow. It hangs. It's all around worse than VLC and MPV. And you used to have to pay to upgrade it to do things that other players do for free. And why can't it play DVDs? Or can it? If so, why is there a separate DVD player? (Rhetorical questions; I don't care since I don't use either program).

App Store is outrageously slow to do anything. 14 seconds to check for updates? wtf? (server backend and not gui issue, but part of UX). I had XCode update fail at downloading the 3 or 5 GB ball of mud. Instead of resuming the download or checking the hash of the file to make sure it wasn't corrupt, it just tried to download 5GB again.

XCode takes up 5GB and seems to be required for some particular development work. It's not really appropriate for Mac Book Airs with their small ssds. So I just don't do that work or try to use a Linux VM.

Facetime just doesn't work 3/5 times.

Preview is alright for reading PDFs, but you can't look at an image in a directory and press a hotkey to see the next image in the directory (as least, I haven't seen how); eog does this.

Mail is an absolute pile of garbage. The threading is confusing as hell. It's soooo slooooooow. Then it hangs when pulling in sysadmin style alert folders (with thousands of mails). Deleting mails is also very very slow (i.e. cleaning out said mailbox takes days). Instead of pushing operations to a background thread it where you can see the progress like in Thunderbird or whatever, it just beachballs. And for some reason, if you want to attach Calendar to an online account you have to do it through Mail (wtf) and if you don't want Mail to be used for the Mail then you have to configure the account correctly. Some people may be tricked into subjecting themselves to the pain of using Mail. :(

With Mail being so terrible, one ends up using Thunderbird or Outlook which have Calendars integrated. So Calendar becomes superfluous. Which is a shame because it works alright with online calendars, but it doesn't seem to have the integration to help plan anything with people.

I don't understand why Notes, Reminders, and Stickies all exist. Reminders should be rolled into Calendar. Notes allegedly integrates with Google but I don't see anything from my Google Keep account in my local Notes hierarchy. And is Notes supposed to compete with OneNote? They've a lot of catching up to do.

Then there's a lot of programs that I haven't opened in a decade since they used to be terrible (iTunes can't even play ogg out of the box, wtf) or I just don't have a use (photobox, game center, imessages). I used to have Pages and Numbers but I don't remember being impressed with them. From what I read, I haven't missed anything by not using them. But if they're free now, why aren't they installed by default for people who might want to write a document?

And if I've signed on to App Store with my icloud id (which needs a credit card to get the free updates, wtf!?), why is there no single sign on? Why do Game Center and Facetime and iMessages prompt me for iCloud credentials? I guess so I can sign in with different accounts (corp vs. personal?) But keychain access doesn't prompt me. So maybe keychain isn't backed up automatically to the cloud... :(

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#356
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux on the desktop is still full of issues that were solved by Windows and Mac a decade ago. Fonts still look like crap (Ubuntu is an exception), and even with patches there are still problems with Java, old GTK libs, etc. I could care less about games, MS Office, a d a lot of other things that are deal breakers for some, but I have tried Linux on the desktop and it is still lacking.

> Fonts still look like crap (Ubuntu is an exception) You can change|install fonts on linux. > and even with patches there are still problems with Java, old GTK libs, etc What kind of problems? > but I have tried Linux on the desktop and it is still lacking. Can you tell us what do you miss?

My latest foray involved Infinality patches on Fedora 23. Honestly, with the exception of Ubuntu, this is the best I've ever gotten with Linux. I think part of this is due to Google having released a lot of great fonts with open licenses (droid mono, e.g.). But still, they just aren't as good as Windows 7. And it's not because I'm just used to Windows. I rarely use Macs, but when I do, I'm more than happy with the fonts (they're probably better than Windows). In both, the display and sizes are consistent in all apps, but Linux has so many different toolkits that don't respect the default - Java, VLC, Chrome, etc. - basically like 50% of the apps I'm using most of the day.

My latest try with running Fedora 23 on my laptop outside of the VM seemed okay... until a recent Kernel / X update turned it into a hot mess - fan constantly running, processor overheating warnings in the logs, etc. Maybe it was my NVidia card or something. The problem is that I have a Dell Precision which is one of THE few models (along with Thinkpads) that are well supported on Linux.

But I just don't have time to deal with these things anymore. If Windows 10 doesn't clean up its act, I'll probably be moving to a MBP, even though I haven't had good luck with them in the past.

Honestly, I'm at the point where I'd pay serious money to RedHat or some other company (maybe Dell or Lenovo) to put out a well supported laptop / Linux combo: nice fonts, supported discrete video, working ACPI, upgradable parts, and no spying or trying to monetize the OS user nor dumbing down the interface a la Apple and MS.

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#357
post #11

I think the best, and most traditional, comparison is the Cathedral and the Bazaar[1]. Pretty much every observation the author makes can be framed in this comparison. BSD has built-in libraries, and has a cohesive architecture. Linux is popular precisely because of its chaos. It is incredibly easy to hack some feature together in Linux. It will probably start out as ugly, but if enough people glom onto it, it will b…

BSD development versus Linux development is not an example of the Cathedral and the Bazaar. That essay was about development process: under the Cathedral process, development happened "behind closed doors" and the only time the public got access to source code was at release time; under the Bazaar process, development happened "in the open" and the in-development source tree was always available to the public (typically via a source control system).

To see why the various BSDs are not an example of the Cathedral process, you only need to look at their source control. In fact, OpenBSD pioneered the idea of anonymous CVS -- before that, you needed an account to check out from the CVS repository:

"When OpenBSD was created, de Raadt decided that the source should be easily available for anyone to read at any time, so, with the assistance of Chuck Cranor, he set up the first public, anonymous CVS server. At the time, the tradition was for only a small team of developers to have access to a project's source repository. Cranor and de Raadt concluded that this practice "runs counter to the open source philosophy" and is inconvenient to contributors. De Raadt's decision allowed "users to take a more active role", and signaled the project's belief in open and public access to source code." [1]

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenBSD#Open-source_and_open_d...

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#358
post #11

I think the best, and most traditional, comparison is the Cathedral and the Bazaar[1]. Pretty much every observation the author makes can be framed in this comparison. BSD has built-in libraries, and has a cohesive architecture. Linux is popular precisely because of its chaos. It is incredibly easy to hack some feature together in Linux. It will probably start out as ugly, but if enough people glom onto it, it will b…

BSD development versus Linux development is not an example of the Cathedral and the Bazaar. That essay was about development process: under the Cathedral process, development happened "behind closed doors" and the only time the public got access to source code was at release time; under the Bazaar process, development happened "in the open" and the in-development source tree was always available to the public (typica…

I disagree with you on both counts. Cathedral development is not about source availability (Wall uses emacs and GCC as an example of Cathedralism for heavens sakes), it's about source modibility. Theoretically two different projects under the same license could have different approaches. Very few high level architectural decisions are made by the Linux maintainers (unless they are coding it), they're there to say, "yes" or "no". Some of the most important features in Linux, cgroups, namespaces, etc, came from outside the maintainer team. By comparison, NetBSD has a highly top-down approach. The source might be readily available, but good luck landing a big patch.

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BSD development versus Linux development is not an example of the Cathedral and the Bazaar. That essay was about development process: under the Cathedral process, development happened "behind closed doors" and the only time the public got access to source code was at release time; under the Bazaar process, development happened "in the open" and the in-development source tree was always available to the public (typica…

I disagree with you on both counts. Cathedral development is not about source availability (Wall uses emacs and GCC as an example of Cathedralism for heavens sakes), it's about source modibility. Theoretically two different projects under the same license could have different approaches. Very few high level architectural decisions are made by the Linux maintainers (unless they are coding it), they're there to say, "y…

At the time ESR wrote the essay, both Emacs and GCC did use the Cathedral development model I speak of. They've only opened up since due to forks like XEmacs and EGCS which started to eat GNU's lunch. The FSF eventually had to cave in to the Bazaar model because it works.

Furthermore, people without committer access land patches in the BSD's all the time. In fact, that's how you get committer access: you first start contributing patches to the appropriate mailing list where existing committers can review them, discuss them, and perhaps merge them. It's not terribly different from sending a pull request on GitHub, and afaik it's pretty much the same process used by the Linux kernel.

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#360
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enlighten me - what's the problem with the linux desktops?

They're Linux. How are you supposed to run Adobe inDesign on a Linux desktop? Or any other useful application, really. Linux should just kill off its desktop. Mac OS X won the Unix desktop wars, and has the expected use models of a desktop, with a proper modern GUI API as well, instead of the ancient X hacks.

> Linux should just kill off its desktop. Mac OS X won the Unix desktop wars, and has the expected use models of a desktop, with a proper modern GUI API as well, instead of the ancient X hacks.

Mac OSX won the "desktop wars"? That's not even funny - it's one of the most awful DEs. You people have clearly no experience with any other OS besides the one from your favorite brand. "Hacker news"... more like "Noob Army News".

Post reply on HN