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Why is JSON so popular? Developers want out of the syntax business

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Re: Why is JSON so popular? Developers want out of the syntax business

#61

Post by dasil003 »

JeremyStein wrote: post #35
ntownsend wrote: post #14

The argument that XML can have various different structures for storing a person's name, while JSON provides one simple solution, doesn't fly. You could run into something like { "Person": { "property": { "type": "first-name", "value": "John" }, "property": { "type": "last-name", "value": "Smith" } } } This begs the question, "Why would you do something that convoluted?" Well, you can ask the same of the XML examples…

Please don't write "begs the question" when you mean "raises the question". http://begthequestion.info/

I respect the difference, but I'm afraid there's not much point in trying to educate people. This has already been an utterly lost cause for decades (at least).

Re: Why is JSON so popular? Developers want out of the syntax business

#62

Post by bphogan »

stcredzero wrote: post #10
pilif wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... while the lispers where still counting the closing parens needed to finally get their code running SCNR

Only the ones too clueless to use Emacs or another editor that does it for you.

Maybe it goes back to my frustrations with Dreamweaver, but I always felt like an IDE only served two purposes - to prevent developers from really learning a language (autocompletes, intellisense, etc) and making up for poorly designed, overly-verbose syntaxes.

Here we are in 2010 and most programming languages still contain tons of semicolons, parans, and curly braces, and the only reasons I can find for this is:

* Language y looks like langage x because everyone's comfortable with language x's syntax already

which is contradicted by * Having trouble with curlybraces and semicolons? Your IDE will do that for you.

We need IDEs to deal with ugly syntax, and we have ugly syntax cos we've always had ugly syntax, but we then use IDEs to write the ugly syntax.

And then I hear people deride VB, Ruby, and Python for it's lack of curly braces and parens.

So, I don't think IDEs are the answer. I think better syntaxes are the answer. For example, I used Textmate's easy HTML completion shortcuts for a long time. Then I found HAML, and I didn't need to close tags anymore. I use Sass, and now my CSS doesn't need ; or {} anymore. Same with CoffeeScript.

C#, Java, Lisp, Perl, JavaScript are all great powerful languages, but I just get really uncomfortable hearing people defend the syntax with "just use your IDE". We're programmers. How come we're not interested in saying "hey, let's fix these things!" If the argument is "IDEs make you more productive in language X" then doesn't that say something about language x?

Just some thoughts.

Re: Why is JSON so popular? Developers want out of the syntax business

#64

Post by jbooth »

tptacek wrote: post #58
axod wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on. Any one of us could write a JSON parser in a page of code. An XML parser is significantly more work due to the overcomplexness of XML. Both to write, and for the CPU to run. And it's larger. In fact I'm struggling to think of something XML has that is good. (And please no one respond with "it's extensible" or I may explode). An XML parser has to track open tag names, with JSON it doesn't matter. XML has all…

You know, I know we're just geeking out here so please don't read too much into me taking the devil's advocate position, but: yes, XML is harder to parse , but the underlying data that gets encoded in JSON and XML isn't substantially different. In both cases --- and let's take the C implementation case --- you're still building a poorly specified buggy implementation of Tcl to actually hold the data and answer questi…

Dunno why you got downmodded there..

Anyways, if they're equivalent, and JSON is both easier to parse and has a far higher data density.. why would anyone ever use XML for anything?

Re: Why is JSON so popular? Developers want out of the syntax business

#65

Post by Hexstream »

stcredzero wrote: post #27
nuclear_eclipse wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some reason, every time I let an editor automatically insert a closing parenthesis, quotation, or brace, I almost always end up with extras at the end, which is just as frustrating, if not harder to debug, as not enough. Maybe it's the way I tend to backstep as I think my way through the code flow, but it never ceases to happen whenever I step foot into Eclipse or Visual Studio...

For some reason, every time I let an editor automatically insert a closing parenthesis, quotation, or brace, I almost always end up with extras at the end User issue here. I never have the problem you refer to. Don't have the editor/IDE insert the parens/brackets. Have it check them for you. Emacs can do a momentary highlight of the opening paren/bracket whenever you type the close of the pair. I used to use that to…

"Don't have the editor/IDE insert the parens/brackets. Have it check them for you. Emacs can do a momentary highlight of the opening paren/bracket whenever you type the close of the pair."

NO. Sorry but you're doing it wrong. Relying on the editor to highlight parentheses is a highly inefficient and error-prone way to work. It's distracting, it wastes mental cycles and inhibits flow.

The correct way is to configure emacs so that when you press a certain key (in my case, right shift because I configured my keyboard so I can activate left shift with my thumb), emacs inserts "()" and puts the cursor in the parentheses. No need to remember or count closing parentheses this way.

It's been a really long while since I last counted parentheses for ANYTHING. Like, let's say I write a let with one variable, and the value is a really deeply nested expression and now I'm done with it and I want to write the body of the let. What do I do? I DON'T COUNT PARENTHESES. I go back to the opening parenthese for the variable declarations of the let, then I skip over that form (the variable declarations) with C-M-f (forward-sexp), right to the body of the let. Then I use C-j (newline-and-indent) and then I can write the body of the let. (if the value form is really long I might skip a few parentheses and use C-M-b to get back at or near the opening parenthese of the variable declarations).

So, executive summary, you walk the structure but you NEVER count parentheses. Like, once every four months I might screw up and delete a parenthese and then the editor and me are both pretty confused, but it's such a total non-issue. And even then, I don't count parentheses a lot because I try to walk the structure by skipping over forms and see what works and what doesn't, and I might tell emacs to reindent some of the code and I immediately see what's wrong. With a proper structure editor, unbalancing the parentheses couldn't even happen.

Re: Why is JSON so popular? Developers want out of the syntax business

#66

Post by cema »

patio11 wrote: post #6
anamax wrote: post #4

As one of the earlier commenters pointed out, lisp welcomes you to the 1960s.

Sorry we were late to the party, guys, we just got so wrapped up in writing software that people actually use.

You are using some lisp software right now.

Re: Why is JSON so popular? Developers want out of the syntax business

#69

Post by vidarh »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #54
stanleydrew wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if we know what he meant why does this matter? Language exists to convey meaning, and I think we all understood what he meant, so I don't see the problem here.

The problem lies in dilution: if people recognize a new meaning in an old phrase, it becomes more difficult to convey the old meaning. (Because you can't use that phrase any more.) There is also the case where you thought you conveyed the new meaning, while it hasn't caught on yet (meaning, you made a mistake). So, better stay safe and stick to the old meaning while we can.

The dilution has already happened, and this cause is pretty much lost.

English is my second language. I've known the "new" meaning since I was a kid.

I've to date maybe seen the "old" meaning used a handful of times other than in examples given by people trying to correct someone using the new meaning.

Outside of academia I'd be surprised to see it at all. I suspect it would be confusing to more people than would recognize it.

Re: Why is JSON so popular? Developers want out of the syntax business

#70

Post by axod »

tptacek wrote: post #58
axod wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on. Any one of us could write a JSON parser in a page of code. An XML parser is significantly more work due to the overcomplexness of XML. Both to write, and for the CPU to run. And it's larger. In fact I'm struggling to think of something XML has that is good. (And please no one respond with "it's extensible" or I may explode). An XML parser has to track open tag names, with JSON it doesn't matter. XML has all…

You know, I know we're just geeking out here so please don't read too much into me taking the devil's advocate position, but: yes, XML is harder to parse , but the underlying data that gets encoded in JSON and XML isn't substantially different. In both cases --- and let's take the C implementation case --- you're still building a poorly specified buggy implementation of Tcl to actually hold the data and answer questi…

Can you explain what is lacking in JSON? What is poorly specified or buggy?
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