No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down • Hacker News Board

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#71

Post by agmcleod » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

GuiA wrote: post #61

ionforce wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if students (or whoever in a power sharing dynamic) are making decisions that are bad for them? How do you veto a bad decision?

I've also worked a fair amount with "alternative" educational structures, albeit in a different country (France). In those kind of pedagogies (mostly Freinet for me), the adults ultimately do have a veto power. However, when you give kids responsibility, something funny happens - you find that they tend to become very reasonable, and you very rarely have to use veto power. More often than not, it's more renegotiation…

On a podcast, a father with a younger daughter kinda dislikes the amount of homework she has to do. Wants to let her have time to be a dumb kid. He tried not bossing her about her homework, told her it was up to her to try. He said she was really on top of it. Managed it quite well.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#72

Post by pbhjpbhj » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #35

nickpsecurity wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In the real world, children are enticed by non-new and broken things just fine... until their parents, competitive peers, TV, or lovers insist they be more materialistic and wealthy signalling." Tamana is describing a behavior known to anyone who have ever watched children play or explore the world. They start out interested in all kinds of stuff regardless if it's shiny or in perfect condition. Later, after much cu…

Do you have kids? My toddler won't even eat a cookie that has a corner broken off.

Awesome, my kids would take the cookie out of my mouth as I chew it. I put that down mainly to nurture.

IME toddlers will refuse to touch something almost perfect aesthetically then pick up something else out of the dirt, a worm maybe, and pop that in their mouth.

Not sure we should be modeling pedagogies to foster toddler temperamentalility.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#73

Post by Barrin92 » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

fao_ wrote: post #31

iSnow wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDK. The toughest calls for home-schooling in Germany come from religious extremists, be it Islamists, Jewish orthodox or Twelve Tribes christian fundamentalists. None of those are anti-authority to begin with. Also: Godwin.

> Also: Godwin. Godwin's law only comes in when something has been compared to Hitler, this person stated a fact: That the law in question was brought in by Hitler.

Well that's not a fact though. Mandatory schooling started in Prussia and was required for children aged 5-14 and the Weimar constitution adopted it as well.

This is just the typical "ermahgerd authoritharianism" Hitler comment that always comes up when the American audience hears the word government and Germany in the same sentence, it's a Pavlovian reflex at this point.

I'm German and the only groups currently advocating home-schooling are crazy religious sects who don't want to 'taint' their children with secular education. Getting rid of long fought for public education isn't a progressive issue.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#74

Post by pinaceae » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 5:38 PM UTC

so, this method is great for the outliers, kids like hawking or tony hawk - kids that are driven by themselves, don't need no guidance, help, discipline.

there is a reason asian kids outperform others, and it's not montessori.

and yes, school is about performance as kids will grow up and will need to be able to earn for a living. work, compete.

school is optimized for the average kid with average parents. all the HN outliers don't apply.

i would opt for full day schools in shitty areas, get the kids away from their parents as much as possible. off the street. teach them.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#75

Post by futuravenir » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 5:39 PM UTC

ada1981 wrote: post #49

Sudbury Valley Schools are the gold standard as far as I can tell from my research. (I spent a number of years as an education/students rights activist; built and ran the country's most famous education blog back in 2009; and have otherwise been doing advocacy work for a couple decades) They are fully democratic and focus on producing empowered self directed citizens who understand how to share limited resources and…

Are you familiar with Agile Learning Centers? I'd love to hear your thoughts on these. http://agilelearningcenters.org

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#76

Post by smokeyj » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

xanderstrike wrote: post #42

nibs wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unschooler here. I am the only unschooler from my 12 person cohort of hippie parents who did not go to University. And I am doing okay. So I think school basically has no effect. Mostly just daycare. It is good at that, though.

Sounds like your cohort was great. There was an "unschooled" girl in my college friend group who was failing remedial math and science classes in her third year. She never wanted to learn basic mathematics (we're talking long division here), so she never did, and she did not understand how to motivate herself to learn about something she wasn't already interested in. She didn't end up graduating despite the small, pr…

> That's the value school has

When you say value, are you talking about the economic type? Because Susie here is probably better off focusing on her music career than learning long division.

I don't see how you can analyze value without quantifying cost and benefit. Even if a better method existed you'd have no way of knowing - especially without more experiments and bigger data sets.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#77

Post by ayylmao907 » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 5:43 PM UTC

I have to say I'm of the opinion that modern education is terribly inefficient, and to back my claim I offer that most people who are any good get there not by following a curriculum but by having an interest which they explore on their own. But that's just on the supposed goals of education. I feel the important achievement of modern school systems is the obedience of the populace, which from a historical perspective is quite a feat really, if far from their professed aim.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#78

Post by empath75 » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 5:43 PM UTC

whamlastxmas wrote: post #65

sandworm101 wrote: post #34

> Year after year, Rasfeld’s institution ends up with the best grades among Berlin’s gesamtschulen, or comprehensive schools, ... So there are still grades, or at least someone is still testing the kids. This isn't utopia yet. >> each school day starts with worship. Sorry. Game over imho. I am not so put off by the specifics of the religion, but by its presence muddying the academic waters. A school religion means a…

I am not at all religious and never will be, but I wouldn't particularly care if my child went to a school that had worship every day. The point of Montessori schools is hands on learning and teaching and providing diversity of learning. Exposure to a benign faith and the beliefs that others hold, even if you don't hold them yourself, isn't harmful. Look at the effects of Catholic schools - the vast majority of peopl…

I went to catholic school for eight years and came out as a hardcore atheist. I don't think that's uncommon. A good education will undermine whatever superstitious nonsense that goes along for the ride eventually.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#79

Post by michaelcampbell » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 5:44 PM UTC

nibs wrote: post #37

savanaly wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite surprising, given how different the methods are. What about a control group that received no schooling?

Unschooler here. I am the only unschooler from my 12 person cohort of hippie parents who did not go to University. And I am doing okay. So I think school basically has no effect. Mostly just daycare. It is good at that, though.

Anecdata, unfortunately.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#80

Post by pbhjpbhj » Mon, Jul 04, 2016, 5:46 PM UTC

frozenport wrote: post #11

I went to one of these as a child and learned nothing. It became a real struggle to learn in a time efficient manner. I would strongly discourage parents from choosing this kind of education for early learners as it doesn't include various social skills like how to sit in a classroom, address a prompt, etc.

Surely it depends on the child?