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Dark side of a Valley software engineer

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Re: Dark side of a Valley software engineer

#41

Post by viraptor »

Symbiote wrote: post #28
db48x wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think generalizing in either direction is a waste of time. Surely where you live won't have that much effect on whether you've decided to work overtime or not. Though I suppose it's more popular to start a business in some locations than in others.

In some countries there are many more rules about working time. For example, in the EU it's not permitted to work more than 48 hours per week on average. As far as I know, that includes "on call" time. http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=706&langId=en&intP...

It includes the time you actually do the on-call work, but not the time when you're just available / waiting.

Re: Dark side of a Valley software engineer

#42

Post by Ntrails »

parr0t wrote: post #35
dham wrote: post #15

Then: Get up at 6am, go to work at grocery store. Get paid $7 an hour. Get out at 1pm, go to school. Go back to grocery store at 7 work till 12. Wake up do it again. Weekends nope. Holidays nope. Now: Wake up at 8 get to work at like 8:45 work till 6 or 7. Sit in air conditioning all day at a computer. Free lunch. Go home, don't worry about anything. No tests to study for, no worrying about paying rent. Holidays off.…

As someone who until Oct last year worked weekends and weekdays getting up at 2:30 am to bust my ass in a bakery for dismal pay and virtually no social life due to the hours - I work part time as a junior developer now and looking back at my old life I don't know how the hell I did it. It motivates me to do the best I can each day so I don't end up back there.

Similar experience as an ex Chef. 60+ hour weeks, 5 days a week spread over various split shifts (so rarely 2 whole days off, and half days never really feel like a break). Working for what comes out as less than minimum wage as salaried.

In part because of this, I find it really difficult to deal with people I work with complaining about pay/bonuses/hours etc, because imo what I do now is way easier and probably less empirically useful (although obviously more valuable - thanks capitalism).

There is a small part of me that misses the buzz of a busy service though.

Re: Dark side of a Valley software engineer

#43

Post by spacecowboy_lon »

commentereleven wrote: post #27
homero wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-normal-working-day-for-a-sof...

The important bit from that page is: "I am on-call about 10 days per quarter, usually 3 shifts of 3-4 days each. I am paid extra for my on-call (after-hours) work, but not at my full hourly salary because I only work when there are problems after hours (e.g. on weekends or late at night.)". Note that depending on the exact team, Software Engineers at Google may also be part of an on-call rotation.

Huh it's normal in the UK to be paid for being on call and than paid at a higher rates for any time at BT it was 4 hours minimum for any call 1.5 1.72 (after 8 pm) and double time and a day on Sunday.

Re: Dark side of a Valley software engineer

#44

Post by justatdotin »

gambiting wrote: post #12
neverminder wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could it be it's just how it works in USA? I'm a software engineer in London and in the last 2 years I haven't done a single minute of overtime.

I'm pretty sure it's just USA. I make a good salary in the North East of UK and I was told multiple times by people from US that I'm crazy to work for that kind of money(If you moved to US, you would easily make 3-4x as much!). And sure, maybe it's true. But I enjoy working 37.5h/week, having 25 paid holiday days a year, unlimited paid sick leave and having a job that I actually like doing - plus I don't really have…

righton

Re: Dark side of a Valley software engineer

#45

Post by uola »

dham wrote: post #15

Then: Get up at 6am, go to work at grocery store. Get paid $7 an hour. Get out at 1pm, go to school. Go back to grocery store at 7 work till 12. Wake up do it again. Weekends nope. Holidays nope. Now: Wake up at 8 get to work at like 8:45 work till 6 or 7. Sit in air conditioning all day at a computer. Free lunch. Go home, don't worry about anything. No tests to study for, no worrying about paying rent. Holidays off.…

While I get your point, I think that to some extent is a false sense of comfort. If you've gone through a challenging time it's more important, not less, to live a balanced life. Because you probably have a lots of "social debt" (loosing contact with friends, not having many relationships, not having done things you normally do at that age etc.) that you need to compensate for. Otherwise you'll sit there at 40+ wondering what happened when (seemingly) everyone else are with their family skiing for the holidays.

Re: Dark side of a Valley software engineer

#46

Post by justatdotin »

leafmc wrote: post #32

It's tough, but at some level these people are choosing this lifestyle. There's no shortage of engineering roles in the world that don't require you to work in high pressured environments and that don't require you to work out of hours. I work 4 days per week rather than the typical 5 and refuse to do out of hours jobs, using the additional day to have fun with open source, exercise and just generally keep on top of…

so few people in this world are able to enjoy enough.

Re: Dark side of a Valley software engineer

#48

Post by jmngomes »

neverminder wrote: post #9
viraptor wrote: post #5

While a lot of the stories are pretty much "this insane thing is considered normal around here", there's some that I feel are due to management and should be changed - long hours or not. > harsh deadlines, huge backlog of tasks, fear to fail This happens everywhere. Deadlines exist because customers exist. All backlogs grow until they're silly. Companies may have a fear to fail. But if you have multiple engineers and…

Could it be it's just how it works in USA? I'm a software engineer in London and in the last 2 years I haven't done a single minute of overtime.

In Portugal, most people (to avoid saying everyone) that work in IT regularly work unpaid overtime, unlike most other professions where overtime is (obviously) paid for, and mostly due to poor management, e.g. project manager doesn't want/know how to negotiate an easily defendable deadline extension, or scope change, or budget restriction, or some basic aspect of the project, so he "asks" the team to work overtime or their performance reviews "may" suffer.

This is, sadly, in line with the mentality of the country's workforce, that believes that you're only doing your job (good or not) if you're leaving after hours...the result is basically people that are too worn out and/or uncooperative by the time they're 40 or less...

Re: Dark side of a Valley software engineer

#50

Post by acveilleux »

bmj wrote: post #37
neverminder wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could it be it's just how it works in USA? I'm a software engineer in London and in the last 2 years I haven't done a single minute of overtime.

It depends entirely on your domain. I've been in the software industry for 15 years or so in the U.S., and aside from a couple of stints at start-ups during the first internet bubble/boom, I've rarely worked much overtime. I've worked for the same employer for eight years now, and management's perspective is this: "Sometimes work will require a bit more than 40 hours a week of your time. Sometimes your life will requ…

Startups attract and value the type of folks who will put in 60 hours every week and get obsessive about it.

Sometimes it grows out of the company as it scales up. Other times it gets institutionalized. The Googles of the world are in a weird spot because they made it part of their culture but the financial and industry upside of working for them mean people apply even if they aren't the kind of folks who can work 60h week for 10 years. Who can say no to that kind of pay cheque?

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