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Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

theatlantic.com

71–80 of 227 posts

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#71
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lefties Ah, one of those comments. Most of the EU countries where immigration is currently an issue have had 'right wing' parties leading them for a very long time. Immigration is just the easiest populist button to press to get a large number of people to vote against their own interests. One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include c…

You are saying immigration is not preventable. The other camp says it is. They vote against EU - and now they've demonstrated that immigration can be limited, so the first camp was wrong. So which camp was right and which was stubborn? In the meantime, the cost was huge for all parties, so all the pro-immigration camp has succeeded is to increase the cost of stopping immigration. And it's not even about intra-EU migr…

You are saying immigration is not preventable

No, he isn't.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#72
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your rant isn't off-topic: Oftentimes the distrust for govt is reworded by socialist persons as "Remove those highly paid CEOs". But sometimes the distrust isn't against corporates. I the English case, a good part of the distrust is that elites are bringing foreigners that compete with the masses without a public debate on immigration quantity. Meanwhile liberals censor the debate by tagging those who speak up as fas…

> lefties Ah, one of those comments. Most of the EU countries where immigration is currently an issue have had 'right wing' parties leading them for a very long time. Immigration is just the easiest populist button to press to get a large number of people to vote against their own interests. One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include c…

a huge influx of refugees was a risk they took knowingly, and that I feel it is only responsible to deal with.

Yes and since you mention responsibilities for destabilization, I would find it appropriate if the US felt some of it too. How many Syrian refugees have they accepted so far? 10k? It's pathetic, given that Europe is absorbing 100x or 200x the amount.

I'd suggest that the Nobel-peace-prize-winning US president should actually take some simple measures to help peace and accept more refugees into his country instead of shutting the borders.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#73
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lefties Ah, one of those comments. Most of the EU countries where immigration is currently an issue have had 'right wing' parties leading them for a very long time. Immigration is just the easiest populist button to press to get a large number of people to vote against their own interests. One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include c…

You are saying immigration is not preventable. The other camp says it is. They vote against EU - and now they've demonstrated that immigration can be limited, so the first camp was wrong. So which camp was right and which was stubborn? In the meantime, the cost was huge for all parties, so all the pro-immigration camp has succeeded is to increase the cost of stopping immigration. And it's not even about intra-EU migr…

The trouble with putting all "immigration" into a single category is that it conflates so many different things.

International visas are currently not harmonised. The UK is and has been free to run a regime that is as liberal or as hostile as it wants. Non-EU migration is not the fault of the EU.

Intra-EU migration is tied (politically) to the single market. The EU is currently making this clear to Switzerland. The cost of stopping intra-EU migration is leaving the single market, which is potentially a huge cost.

And then there's the real problem: a lot of people who the public considers to be "immigrants" are actually local nationals with nonwhite skin. All of the Bataclan killers were French nationals! There's no immigration policy that could have made a difference here without also having a time machine.

Once you realise that people complaining about "immigrants" also mean "non-white local nationals", suddenly there's no solution. Then you realise that people promising a solution are at the top of the slippery slope leading to the Final Solution, the very thing the EU was set up to prevent ever happening again.

And that's why MP Jo Cox was murdered a few days before the vote.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#74
Ok, First of all, I feel like "around the world" is stretching it a bit much for the purposes of the article. Secondly, I don't think you can explain the core reasons for this without talking about a specific country, because despite the similarities of even, say, the US and the U.K., the underlying causalities are much different. Thirdly, it is ominous when the author talks about the media consuming educated group, because the main thing being ignored in that front is the fact that operation mockingbird never went away and (the US at least) has turned propaganda into an invasive art. People are dangerous when they are easily propagandized, but especially moreso when they don't even realize it. Of course that's why in politics the 50-80 year olds are the primary target. Because they vote and they consume the bullshit off $TVStation with little incredulity. This is also why the Internet is under increasing threat from the supranational oligarchy, because the anarchistic freedom of thought it encourages is dangerous to them.

I could tell you about where this trend is going, but that would involve conspiracy theory and nasty confrontation of facts that most people don't want to do to be honest. As for why "the people" are trusting "the government" less, I think while much of it is the natural reaction to a government with corruption run amok, I have a sneaking suspicion that at least some of the increased distrust for government is a deliberate play by the supranational oligarchy vying to undermine the only thing that truly has any reigns around its neck, and that's government.

The other main factor is the lack of the rule of law. I think the lack of it has always been there, with varying degrees by subject of course, but now people find out about the true extent of the corruption and lack of rule of law via the Internet and I think it's breeding revolutionary attitudes.

When everyone sees stuff like bankers do obviously illegal, immoral, and amoral stuff, then get paid for it, and then get no legal repercussions, the rest of us are slowly gonna start saying "fuck it", and abandoning faith in institutions.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#75
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your rant isn't off-topic: Oftentimes the distrust for govt is reworded by socialist persons as "Remove those highly paid CEOs". But sometimes the distrust isn't against corporates. I the English case, a good part of the distrust is that elites are bringing foreigners that compete with the masses without a public debate on immigration quantity. Meanwhile liberals censor the debate by tagging those who speak up as fas…

> lefties Ah, one of those comments. Most of the EU countries where immigration is currently an issue have had 'right wing' parties leading them for a very long time. Immigration is just the easiest populist button to press to get a large number of people to vote against their own interests. One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include c…

"Vote against their own interests" is one of those terms that I can't stand hearing, because it assumes whoever says it knows what's best for everyone else.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#76

If with 'around the world' they intend to mean 'The USA and the UK' then I'm all in agreement. But the rest of the world is not that much different from 12 months ago. The article sugggests strongly that these other countries had a completely different view of their governments in the recent past but I see very little evidence of that. But in the UK (see: brexit) and in the USA (see: Trump) there definitely is a popu…

The French Front National has seen a pretty dramatic increase in votership over the last years as well.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lefties Ah, one of those comments. Most of the EU countries where immigration is currently an issue have had 'right wing' parties leading them for a very long time. Immigration is just the easiest populist button to press to get a large number of people to vote against their own interests. One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include c…

"Vote against their own interests" is one of those terms that I can't stand hearing, because it assumes whoever says it knows what's best for everyone else.

But look at eg Cornwall, who voted to leave and then realised it would mean losing a bunch of EU funding.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-cornwa...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/26/cornwall-fea...

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#78
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like there was plenty of "political innovation", especially in Europe, after the Great Depression in the 1930s? I'd argue that didn't work out too well. Hopefully this time its different.

You can hope, but does Trump and brexit look different? And if so, does it look better?

I think that was the point of the original article - the mistrust of "authority" following the financial crisis is leading to irrational behaviour such as blind faith in charismatic leaders (who are typically reactionary rather than progressive). Based on historical precedents (e.g. the swing to political extremes following the Great Depression) I don't think this is "positive trend" for a brighter better future, but I hope I'm wrong.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#79

If with 'around the world' they intend to mean 'The USA and the UK' then I'm all in agreement. But the rest of the world is not that much different from 12 months ago. The article sugggests strongly that these other countries had a completely different view of their governments in the recent past but I see very little evidence of that. But in the UK (see: brexit) and in the USA (see: Trump) there definitely is a popu…

> there definitely is a populist shift in progress

Is it that difficult to believe that a large part of the population is not interested in multiculturalism, unrestrained immigration, Islam, etc? I think until this concept cannot be fathomed and taken seriously you will see a continued shift towards so called "populist" thinking. There _must_ be a shift towards a more moderate politics. It is too far to the left and it's too liberal for the vast majority of people in those countries. You can argue against this ad nauseum, however at the the end of the day it's a democracy and the majority will steer the direction they want their politics to go. The current liberal parties need to wake up and realise they're pushing a form of politics that is out of touch with the masses. And every time people say Trump supports are "stupid" and "racist" and "backwards" you are just going to make them push even harder, because you refuse to acknowledge their very real grievances.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#80

If with 'around the world' they intend to mean 'The USA and the UK' then I'm all in agreement. But the rest of the world is not that much different from 12 months ago. The article sugggests strongly that these other countries had a completely different view of their governments in the recent past but I see very little evidence of that. But in the UK (see: brexit) and in the USA (see: Trump) there definitely is a popu…

Populism is up essentially all over Europe.

Timbro (neoliberal think-tank) Authoritarian Populism Index 2016 http://timbro.se/sites/timbro.se/files/files/reports/4_rappo... (pdf)

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