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Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

theatlantic.com

41–50 of 227 posts

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#41
post #33
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that hard to believe. Those in power, which you classify as (more) intelligent, were afraid of their peer Yanis Varoufakis so much that they did everything to make him leave. They didn't understand his proposals (models) because the other finance ministers missed vital economic knowledge, or that's how it seems to me at least. If I looked for it, I could name many not-so-intelligent and uneducated ministers al…

They were afraid of Varoufakis because he wanted to change the economic model of the EU. He wanted to change the status quo, which their job is to protect. You say they were "not-so-intelligent an uneducated", I say they did their job well and were pretty good at manipulating public opinion.

As I understood, he wanted to change the economic model of Greece only. It's the EU that didn't want economic pluriformity.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#42

Why should people trust any government in the first place? Governments nowadays came to replace institutions of organized religions as the way to gain a high social status and security, and hence became as bloated, inefficient and corrupted as old, unreformed churches of the past. No sane people would 'trust' such social formations which sole purpose is self preservation and parasitic growth.

I think you need to look at "Churches of the past" a little harder. Churches had their time and while we haven't managed to get rid of them yet, we are a lot better of with a separation between them and the state.

But we replaced it with the Church Of Capitalism, which has its own sets of dogma. Maybe we need a separation of finance and state?

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#43
post #2

I'd argue this is a positive trend. Hopefully it leads to more innovation in governance.

Like there was plenty of "political innovation", especially in Europe, after the Great Depression in the 1930s? I'd argue that didn't work out too well. Hopefully this time its different.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see it as the perfect storm, trust collapse is causing apathy, not desire to reform. when they say government is migrating toward a gerontocracy is not just because politician are from the older classes, but also because younger participate less in the democratic debate, whether in the first line or by voting. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/Uk_general_el... https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images…

We didn't have apathy in the recent UK referendum, voter turnout was very high.

If I understand correctly, there was a significant gap between the turnout rate for the young people and the turnout rate for the elderly.

https://next.ft.com/content/2994afe4-43b0-3763-a80c-92351473...

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#45
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your rant isn't off-topic: Oftentimes the distrust for govt is reworded by socialist persons as "Remove those highly paid CEOs". But sometimes the distrust isn't against corporates. I the English case, a good part of the distrust is that elites are bringing foreigners that compete with the masses without a public debate on immigration quantity. Meanwhile liberals censor the debate by tagging those who speak up as fas…

> lefties Ah, one of those comments. Most of the EU countries where immigration is currently an issue have had 'right wing' parties leading them for a very long time. Immigration is just the easiest populist button to press to get a large number of people to vote against their own interests. One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include c…

Another mistake regarding extraEU immigration is that they put all the responsibility on the Schengen border countries instead of creating a common solution for that.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#46
post #31

In my opinion this is the inevitable political crisis that unrestrained neoliberalism has lead us to. [ https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/31/witnes... ] I'd say this is the end of the ideology but I'm too much of a realist and I expect the powers that be to now double down on it and then try and profit from it all going up in flames. (But please don't assume I am some kind of socialist/anti-capitalis…

Your rant isn't off-topic: Oftentimes the distrust for govt is reworded by socialist persons as "Remove those highly paid CEOs". But sometimes the distrust isn't against corporates. I the English case, a good part of the distrust is that elites are bringing foreigners that compete with the masses without a public debate on immigration quantity. Meanwhile liberals censor the debate by tagging those who speak up as fas…

One of the points made recently was that it's not necessarily possible to prevent "foreigners taking your job" in a globalised world. Prevent immigration? The industry goes overseas anyway. Prevent imports? Doesn't result in locally-made artisan iPhones. You can see that in e.g. Brazil where there's a high import tax on electronics. It doesn't result in import substitution but just handicaps people trying to build businesses that use tech.

There is no option for "make the foreigners cease to exist" or "make them stop wanting to compete their way up to our standard of living".

"Distrust" in general in the UK and the US is probably fed mostly by the spectacular rise of media management and post-truth politics. Trust is a valuable public resource: a high-trust society can get a lot more done because people don't have to spend all their time securing themselves and their business deals, but can trust that genuine infractions will be dealt with and normal non-harmful activities left alone. It's always possible for anyone to do well in the short term by breaching trust, but if too many people do this it's like overfishing (another EU issue). Once lying becomes routine we end up stuck in the wrong side of the Prisoner's Dilemma.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#47
post #16
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The latest plan seems to be to cut corporate taxes to try to stop the larger companies from leaving the UK, and possibly to attract new ones. The race to the bottom started with Ireland, suggestions are to cut the tax to 15% in the rest of the UK, with some voices pushing for 10% or even 5% corporate tax. Of course this has nothing to do with using the opportunity created by the brexit power vacuum to reward some spe…

Race to the bottom (i.e. competition) is a good thing, it reduces waste and inefficiency.

Countries aren't machines built to serve companies. Whole countries shouldn't be made to become "more efficient" (or poorer) for the sake of companies.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#48

This just the masses realising that they have been decapitated. In all western countries the intelligent are identified at a young age and brought into the ruling class via education. There is no one left to speak for the interests of the bottom 90% nor formulate a plan to change the status quo. Faced with this it is not surprising that the masses get restless and thrash out at any symbol of authority no matter the c…

I'm university educated, where do I get my ruling class membership card? I'd like to change a few things.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#49
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your rant isn't off-topic: Oftentimes the distrust for govt is reworded by socialist persons as "Remove those highly paid CEOs". But sometimes the distrust isn't against corporates. I the English case, a good part of the distrust is that elites are bringing foreigners that compete with the masses without a public debate on immigration quantity. Meanwhile liberals censor the debate by tagging those who speak up as fas…

> lefties Ah, one of those comments. Most of the EU countries where immigration is currently an issue have had 'right wing' parties leading them for a very long time. Immigration is just the easiest populist button to press to get a large number of people to vote against their own interests. One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include c…

You are saying immigration is not preventable. The other camp says it is. They vote against EU - and now they've demonstrated that immigration can be limited, so the first camp was wrong. So which camp was right and which was stubborn?

In the meantime, the cost was huge for all parties, so all the pro-immigration camp has succeeded is to increase the cost of stopping immigration.

And it's not even about intra-EU migration. It's probably about the number of international visas granted.

I didn't even have an opinion on the Brexit. All I notice is there is little tolerance or understanding for the Leave camp.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#50
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your rant isn't off-topic: Oftentimes the distrust for govt is reworded by socialist persons as "Remove those highly paid CEOs". But sometimes the distrust isn't against corporates. I the English case, a good part of the distrust is that elites are bringing foreigners that compete with the masses without a public debate on immigration quantity. Meanwhile liberals censor the debate by tagging those who speak up as fas…

> lefties Ah, one of those comments. Most of the EU countries where immigration is currently an issue have had 'right wing' parties leading them for a very long time. Immigration is just the easiest populist button to press to get a large number of people to vote against their own interests. One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include c…

I agree with most of your comment except with this comparison:

> Try to imagine a USA where someone from Texas would not be able to move to LA or NYC or the other way around. Border controls against movement on every state-border.

> If you find that hard to imagine try to come up with a really good argument why it should be any different within the EU.

Before the recent migratory crisis free movement of people was not really a very hard pressing issue, even after the inclusion of the former eastern bloc countries.

It only took the currently seen proportion when, as response to the migratory pressure and the reticence of neighboring countries, Germany (unilaterally) signaled that they would accept and welcome the migrants without a clear vetting or logistic process in place.

A more apt analogy would be if NAFTA, originally an economic treaty, evolved into a free movement treaty between the participant countries and then, as the result of some kind of adverse conditions in South America, Canada declared that they were willing to accept the South America migrants that managed to reach their country.

There would be a big migratory pressure on the southern Mexican border (the actual border of that union) and unable to control or unwilling to deal with the problem on its own Mexico started to organize the flow of migrants from its southern border to its northern, passing the problem along to the next country, the United States.

In that hypothetical scenario the parties opposed to the original conversion of NAFTA from an economic treaty to a freedom of movement treaty would be bolstered by this unforeseen and unrelated event.

Two notes:

1) nowhere in this analogy I'm making any statement of opinion or passing any judgement about rhe situation depicted

2) comparing NAFTA to the EU is more apt than comparing US to the EU because the states that make the later have a much stronger and older sense of their own national identity than those of the former.

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