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Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

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Re: Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

#41

Post by choosername »

escape_goat wrote: post #24
coldtea wrote: post #7

So, some corrupt officials, a polygamist, a wanted official seeking asylum in a foreign consulate, and restaurants reusing cooking oil too much is an example of "unreality"? Where exactly did the author grew up in? Cushioned upper class life, or Disneyland? And those examples in a country with over a billion people? You can find all those examples in Africa, Asia, South America, etc. A lot of those are hardly uncommo…

A clearer example of the sort of unreality that the author is trying to describe to you would be the Wenzhou train derailment in 2011. [1] Faced with a crisis that was guaranteed to attract national attention, local officials reacted by attempting to quickly bury the derailed cars on the spot, to the sheer incredulity of absolutely everyone else in China. This is not easily dismissed as a mere example of corruption,…

That's just anothet point to a short list. Sure, the list is longer, but the problem that the train derailed to begin with, that happens here, in europe, as well.

Re: Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

#42

Post by manmal »

choosername wrote: post #41
escape_goat wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A clearer example of the sort of unreality that the author is trying to describe to you would be the Wenzhou train derailment in 2011. [1] Faced with a crisis that was guaranteed to attract national attention, local officials reacted by attempting to quickly bury the derailed cars on the spot, to the sheer incredulity of absolutely everyone else in China. This is not easily dismissed as a mere example of corruption,…

That's just anothet point to a short list. Sure, the list is longer, but the problem that the train derailed to begin with, that happens here, in europe, as well.

They don't try to cover up train accidents, though. Nobody would even have this idea, I mean what the?

Re: Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

#44

Post by onlywei »

ben_jones wrote: post #40
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When the citizens realize the infallible groupthink propaganda touted by the ruling class is in fact being touted by people inflicted with the human condition, they also experience a change in world view. As someone who has grown up in and is Chinese, I very much disagree with this sentiment, especially in modern day. There has always been a discordant and uncomfortable relationship with authority in Chinese cultur…

> but to upend society has an almost horrific cultural connotation, a cultural catastophe referred to only as "that critical time" or "those difficult times" In historical context the Chinese have every right to be weary. Between WW2 and the "Great Leap Forward" over fifty million have died due to famine and warfare, either inflicted by international forces or the ruling class.

Don't forget the overthrow of the Qing dynasty by the British in the 1800s.

Re: Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

#45

Post by ben_jones »

onlywei wrote: post #44
ben_jones wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but to upend society has an almost horrific cultural connotation, a cultural catastophe referred to only as "that critical time" or "those difficult times" In historical context the Chinese have every right to be weary. Between WW2 and the "Great Leap Forward" over fifty million have died due to famine and warfare, either inflicted by international forces or the ruling class.

Don't forget the overthrow of the Qing dynasty by the British in the 1800s.

Yeah the Opium wars, where Britain arguably got a whole nation addicted to Opium in order to secure better trading conditions for the East India Company.

Re: Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

#46

Post by coldtea »

manmal wrote: post #42
choosername wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just anothet point to a short list. Sure, the list is longer, but the problem that the train derailed to begin with, that happens here, in europe, as well.

They don't try to cover up train accidents, though. Nobody would even have this idea, I mean what the?

>They don't try to cover up train accidents, though. Nobody would even have this idea, I mean what the?

They didn't try to cover up the train accident in China either. The accident was a major news event for days, there was big rescue missions, etc. They also did an investigation on the causes, down to the design, creation and operation of the trains and lines: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/29/world/asia/design-flaws-ci...

What they also did, which was hasty, and people called them on it, was trying to bury the broken carriages afterwards -- not to somehow hide that the accident happened (that was major news everywhere anyway), but as a clumsy "move on, nothing to see here" gesture.

Re: Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

#47

Post by coldtea »

Apocryphon wrote: post #36
coldtea wrote: post #7

So, some corrupt officials, a polygamist, a wanted official seeking asylum in a foreign consulate, and restaurants reusing cooking oil too much is an example of "unreality"? Where exactly did the author grew up in? Cushioned upper class life, or Disneyland? And those examples in a country with over a billion people? You can find all those examples in Africa, Asia, South America, etc. A lot of those are hardly uncommo…

I think you're ignoring the difference in scale between corruption we see and hear about in most of the developed world, and the rampant corruption we see in China. And China is currently exceptional, in that it is neither truly developed, nor developing (as in most "third world" countries where you could see that amount of immense corruption), but its own mix of hyper-developed and third world.

>I think you're ignoring the difference in scale between corruption we see and hear about in most of the developed world, and the rampant corruption we see in China.

I'll take any major difference in scale with several grains of salt, as I believe the developed world is just more sophisticated in hiding that corruption.

>but its own mix of hyper-developed and third world.

So like New York and Mississippi? Or California and South Dakota?

Re: Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

#48

Post by coldtea »

cooper12 wrote: post #15
coldtea wrote: post #7

So, some corrupt officials, a polygamist, a wanted official seeking asylum in a foreign consulate, and restaurants reusing cooking oil too much is an example of "unreality"? Where exactly did the author grew up in? Cushioned upper class life, or Disneyland? And those examples in a country with over a billion people? You can find all those examples in Africa, Asia, South America, etc. A lot of those are hardly uncommo…

You're doing no better by trivializing the author's purview. He doesn't live anywhere else you mentioned, he lives in China and in Tibet before that. That is the world he inhabits and that his writing reflects. Not to mention that problems are relative; you think an American balking at finding out their favorite restaurant was closed because of hygiene issues doesn't feel something comparable to a Chinese person who…

>You're doing no better by trivializing the author's purview. He doesn't live anywhere else you mentioned, he lives in China and in Tibet before that.

There are billions of people, including highly successful or educated people, living in a place X all of their lives, while still not understanding it. Do, for example, Trump supporters really understand their country?

>you think an American balking at finding out their favorite restaurant was closed because of hygiene issues doesn't feel something comparable to a Chinese person who finds out their favorite street vendor used gutter oil?

They wouldn't call the whole country "unreal" for that.

>Also in all of those Western examples you gave, China was much worse off. How can you say that China's situation isn't bad with a straight face? This is a country where the smug is so bad you can't see a few feet ahead of you.

Well, there are industrial cities in Europe where it used to be like that. Or the horrible smog in LA in the 70s-80s. And China has been the "factory" of the world for 2 decades, so we've basically outsourced our smog there.

>Where people who criticize the government can be made to disappear.

That has been business as usual in places ranging from Italy, Greece, Portugal and Spain to Mexico for most of the 20th century (and still in the 21st). Not to mention most of Latin America, and often with you know who's support.

>Where the internet goes through a firewall and is closed off from the rest of the world.

Well, if the US was in their place, ie no longer top dog, with another country owning most of the internet's infrastructure and flagship services, and openly meddling in their regional affairs, plus stuffing its culture and political views all over the world, they'd do something like to to. Like they did during McCarthy, where certain tendencies had to be eradicated from mass media, cinema, etc.

Re: Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

#49

Post by natrius »

cjslep wrote: post #17
coldtea wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe the same thing is happening right now in modern China. Simply substitute constituents and the oligarchy instead for the child and parent. Only ordinary Chinese citizens are not childlike and easily led at all (that's an early colonial misunderstanding) -- they are just as smart and street-wise as we are, and understand all the gritty details -- they always did.

Thanks for pointing this out. It was not my intention to portray Chinese citizens as childlike. I simply meant to use the loss of childhood innocence as an example of how world views can be changed at a fundamental level. That kind of change can occur at any stage of life for anyone; childhood innocence tends to be the most relatable as an example across cultures. Another example was given to me by a coworker: after…

Look at the great discussion you started! Thanks for taking the risk of being imprecise to share your thoughts.

Re: Modern China Is So Crazy It Needs a New Literary Genre

#50

Post by sangnoir »

coldtea wrote: post #7

So, some corrupt officials, a polygamist, a wanted official seeking asylum in a foreign consulate, and restaurants reusing cooking oil too much is an example of "unreality"? Where exactly did the author grew up in? Cushioned upper class life, or Disneyland? And those examples in a country with over a billion people? You can find all those examples in Africa, Asia, South America, etc. A lot of those are hardly uncommo…

> So, some corrupt officials, a polygamist, a wanted official seeking asylum in a foreign consulate, and restaurants reusing cooking oil too much is an example of "unreality"?...

Your blasé phrasing strips away all the context. If Donald Trump was to be outed as a practising Muslim today, it would be unreal (to me a least), but one could equally say: "bah, hypocrite politicians are everywhere" - it still wouldn't make it any less "unreal", in context.

> Corrupt politicians? We have Presidents and PMs, senators and MPs openly retiring and joining the boards of companies they helped during their political career.

None of your corrupt politicians have been discovered with $31 million of cold, hard cash stashed at their lake houses. Seeing a fork-lift hauling 300kg of $100 notes on live TV would be 'unreal'. What's unreal is not the corruption, per se, but the context around it.

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