Just A New Fractal Detail In The Big Picture (2015) • Hacker News Board

Re: Just A New Fractal Detail In The Big Picture (2015)

#61

Post by bryanph_ » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 10:14 PM UTC

atemerev wrote: post #39

As a curious software engineer, I have a basic familiarity on where heating oil comes from (I remember my first sci-pop book with a section on basics of oil processing), where nuts are grown, basics of food industry supply chains, and every other example covered. My knowledge might be rudimentary and without much detail, but I try to cover all bases, and when I discover some area of human knowledge I genuinely know n…

This is a road to madness. If every time you wouldn't understand something you would just plunge into the material and get familiarized you would do nothing else for the rest of your life. I think Eno means managing ignorance in the way of making a decision on when to stay ignorant (whilst being aware of your ignorance) and when to learn and hence "fix" this ignorance.

Re: Just A New Fractal Detail In The Big Picture (2015)

#62

Post by e12e » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 10:19 PM UTC

mwfunk wrote: post #15

He's addressing one aspect of AI that can be disturbing to some people, specifically becoming reliant on the expertise of others in your day-to-day life and thus becoming less independent. If your biggest issue with the concept of AI assistants is that they might have insights about you that you yourself don't have, I could see this article making someone feel better about it. For me at least, that's not the primary…

I still think your examples are more of the "powerful tools" kind of AI. And I think the general argument about "hard AI problems, when solved, cease to be AI" is also along those lines.

I think we've proven by example that what we thought of as things that require "real" intelligence, like chess, go, jeopardy - really don't. They're not a good yardstick for intelligence. Or intelligence is not as closely tied to (self) awareness and consciousness as we once thought.

I do worry about the "autonomous system" problem. The link between meta-data and drone strikes have brought us uncomfortably close to a real Skynet - without any need for an emergent consciousness per se.

But I always read discussions on AI (the kind that "Wake up") to really be more about AC: artificial consciousness.

> I don't fear people becoming dependent on AI.

Indeed. I fear AI that stops being dependent on people. Such systems are still far off, I believe. But I don't see why we couldn't intentionally or by accident create a new form of life that could out-compete us, and in the end make us extinct.

Re: Just A New Fractal Detail In The Big Picture (2015)

#63

Post by JoBrad » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 10:22 PM UTC

Rauchg wrote: post #45

For different versions of this argument see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_effect . Bostrom said: "A lot of cutting edge AI has filtered into general applications, often without being called AI because once something becomes useful enough and common enough it's not labelled AI anymore". Finally, the problem with all these articles is the lack of precise definition for the terminology involved (it reminds me of deb…

It's generally accepted that any intelligence that isn't from a living being is artificial. Global Civilization isn't living, per se.

Re: Just A New Fractal Detail In The Big Picture (2015)

#64

Post by ccccc0 » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 10:32 PM UTC

JoBrad wrote: post #63

Rauchg wrote: post #45

For different versions of this argument see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_effect . Bostrom said: "A lot of cutting edge AI has filtered into general applications, often without being called AI because once something becomes useful enough and common enough it's not labelled AI anymore". Finally, the problem with all these articles is the lack of precise definition for the terminology involved (it reminds me of deb…

It's generally accepted that any intelligence that isn't from a living being is artificial. Global Civilization isn't living, per se.

I'd argue that Global Civilization is nothing but living!

Re: Just A New Fractal Detail In The Big Picture (2015)

#65

Post by ZenoArrow » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 10:33 PM UTC

RIMR wrote: post #57

cobbzilla wrote: post #48

seems like an issue of semantics - he's taking something most of us would just call "human culture" and naming it "AI" - which is an interesting idea, but true artificial intelligence is something that involves some amount of self awareness of the system to itself.

To be further semantic, one could say you're referring to AI automata, not just AI.

It's interesting how we conflate self-awareness with true intelligence. It implies that something cannot be truly intelligent until the point it creates a personality for it to identify with. I'd argue that a better indication of intelligence is self-directed learning, even if the seed of that desire to learn is programmed in from an outside source. I don't think its necessary for an AI to need to form a narrative of self.

Re: Just A New Fractal Detail In The Big Picture (2015)

#66

Post by skinnyarms » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 10:36 PM UTC

atemerev wrote: post #39

As a curious software engineer, I have a basic familiarity on where heating oil comes from (I remember my first sci-pop book with a section on basics of oil processing), where nuts are grown, basics of food industry supply chains, and every other example covered. My knowledge might be rudimentary and without much detail, but I try to cover all bases, and when I discover some area of human knowledge I genuinely know n…

You should try building a toaster from scratch

https://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_thwaites_how_i_built_a_toas...

Re: Just A New Fractal Detail In The Big Picture (2015)

#67

Post by skinnyarms » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 10:36 PM UTC

atemerev wrote: post #39

As a curious software engineer, I have a basic familiarity on where heating oil comes from (I remember my first sci-pop book with a section on basics of oil processing), where nuts are grown, basics of food industry supply chains, and every other example covered. My knowledge might be rudimentary and without much detail, but I try to cover all bases, and when I discover some area of human knowledge I genuinely know n…

You should try building a toaster from scratch

https://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_thwaites_how_i_built_a_toas...

Re: Just A New Fractal Detail In The Big Picture (2015)

#68

Post by jschwartzi » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 10:39 PM UTC

grahamburger wrote: post #50

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with habit reinforcement is that you've simply created a feedback loop. "You like [music type]? Here are more bands/artists of [music type]." It looks like an innocent service. But it's devastating to real exploration, because it makes it much less likely you'll ever discover Band/Artist Z whom you'd never normally listen to but love anyway. This is why thoughtless customer profiling is a dumb idea, and c…

> The problem with habit reinforcement is that you've simply created a feedback loop. > "You like [music type]? Here are more bands/artists of [music type]." So far I've found the opposite. Pandora has exposed me to music that I never would have sought out on my own. In fact I can think of several artists that I would have judged by their cover, so to speak, and never given a chance even if I had stumbled on them on…

Contrast that with Spotify, which when given a song or artist that I like goes out of its way to recommend music that is superficially similar but that I hate. Or how it can recommend 80 songs to me a week based on things I have listened to and end up recommending me nothing that I like.

Re: Just A New Fractal Detail In The Big Picture (2015)

#69

Post by ZenoArrow » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 10:41 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #35

For those interested in what people who actually know whereof they speak have to say on the topic of technological unemployment, and the history of economic discussion of the topic, a solid outline of discussions from Ricardo, Mill, McCollough, and Neisser, is included here: https://econospeak.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-technology-trap-...

> "For those interested in what people who actually know whereof they speak have to say on the topic"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

I've no problem with learning from others, but pointing to a select handful of people who 'actually know whereof they speak' is not going to help explore the field fully.

Re: Just A New Fractal Detail In The Big Picture (2015)

#70

Post by ansible » Sun, Jul 03, 2016, 10:41 PM UTC

atemerev wrote: post #39

As a curious software engineer, I have a basic familiarity on where heating oil comes from (I remember my first sci-pop book with a section on basics of oil processing), where nuts are grown, basics of food industry supply chains, and every other example covered. My knowledge might be rudimentary and without much detail, but I try to cover all bases, and when I discover some area of human knowledge I genuinely know n…

Yeah, I thought that was all kind of funny too. I'm a voracious reader, and have been curious about just about all parts of science and technology at some point. So I too knew at least the basics for everything he mentioned. Magically plop me in a stone-age agrarian society, and we'd be back to at least an 18th-century level of technology in a couple decades.